Interesting Hand for Discussion
Okay, I'm playing 2-5 NL at Seneca this weekend.
I have JS 10S under the gun. I raise to $25 and get 6 callers!
Flop is KS 2S 10H.
Check, Check and I bet $50 and get 1 caller.
Turn is 6S
I bet $50 and get 1 caller.
River is a 9S
I say, "I got the nuts, just fold" and bet $25.
He says okay and re-raises to $50.
Here's where it gets interesting.
I say "nice catch". Still haven't acted.
He then flashes me the AS and throws his cards face down "directly" on top of the muck since he is sitting beside the dealer. I say, I win?? Dealer immediately calls floor.
First floor hears what happens and says "cards read if shown". Apparently the dealer saw the KH so the floor is trying to rule cards play. (at this point, I'm on the verge of going nuts)
Another floor comes and agrees with the ruling. I say, give him the $25 he re-raised me and ship me the pot trying to be a nice guy. He still doesn't do it.
I say "I still have action, have not said anything and I go all in"? He can't call, I win?
The TD from the tourney earlier that night comes over cuz I'm getting a little pissed. I explain what happened and tell him I offered the $25. HE IMMEDIATELY gives him the $25 and ships me the pot.
I think this is the correct ruling? However, it took over 7 min to figure this one out?
My point, he mucked his "own" cards. AND I still have action since I never moved or said anything cuz the dealer instantly called the floor?
Thoughts?
I have JS 10S under the gun. I raise to $25 and get 6 callers!
Flop is KS 2S 10H.
Check, Check and I bet $50 and get 1 caller.
Turn is 6S
I bet $50 and get 1 caller.
River is a 9S
I say, "I got the nuts, just fold" and bet $25.
He says okay and re-raises to $50.
Here's where it gets interesting.
I say "nice catch". Still haven't acted.
He then flashes me the AS and throws his cards face down "directly" on top of the muck since he is sitting beside the dealer. I say, I win?? Dealer immediately calls floor.
First floor hears what happens and says "cards read if shown". Apparently the dealer saw the KH so the floor is trying to rule cards play. (at this point, I'm on the verge of going nuts)
Another floor comes and agrees with the ruling. I say, give him the $25 he re-raised me and ship me the pot trying to be a nice guy. He still doesn't do it.
I say "I still have action, have not said anything and I go all in"? He can't call, I win?
The TD from the tourney earlier that night comes over cuz I'm getting a little pissed. I explain what happened and tell him I offered the $25. HE IMMEDIATELY gives him the $25 and ships me the pot.
I think this is the correct ruling? However, it took over 7 min to figure this one out?
My point, he mucked his "own" cards. AND I still have action since I never moved or said anything cuz the dealer instantly called the floor?
Thoughts?
Comments
And yes the pot is yours!
The dealer called the floor over because it was inevitable.
Prophet :2h :2s
It's crap like this that give bad players bad impressions of poker and make them stop playing entirely.
Karma will square up with you at some point.
I think Hell is starting to freeze over, BBC Z and I actually agree!
Prophet :2h :2s
Why are you acting like this?
Are you coming to us for approval?
I think you know what the right thing to do is.
I hate the move. Technically your pot......but you make no friends that way.
As a kid, when in sports, the other team won cheap becuase we had no goalie, or exploited an open left field for nine innings.......I always asked....."DO you really wan to win that way" and try to appeal to thier competitive fire.
do not be proud of yourself.
Does everyone forget how we blasted koal wuds when he mucked the nuts some months ago? This is exactly the same thing just from the opposing side.
As long as folded didn't hide his cards or pretend to muck them then what angle are you (anyone in this thread) claiming he shot?
/g2
I don't think I angle shot here... (and if I did, I don't care)..
i talk a lot when we play and saying I have the nuts before I and the opposition acts, not sure I agree...
oh well
Was your opponent protesting?
Hero makes a statement that is usually followed by a muck.
In all honesty, if it's me, I'll split the pot with him.
Dude, seriously, you won some monies due to the technicality of the rulebook over the spirit of the game. If $100 is worth your soul, then congrats.
It'll all balance out. You'll muck your hand or do something and I hope it'll be for more than what you stole here.
There's nothing to be proud of, you won on a technicality.
Cory this is exactly what happened at QTJens that day. Although that was a tournament when you showed your card and I took it as a fold and threw my cards to the muck and went to pick up the pot you when into this song and dance. One day it will come back and haunt you, you will do this to the wrong guy and he will pull a gun on you!
Seriously you better watch your back. This kind of play will bite you in the ass.
Prophet :2h :2s
PS I would like you to define angle shooting for me.
Talking during a hand is not angle-shooting. Lots of people talk during a hand in order to try to get information about the strength of their opponent. Cory did this, and there is nothing wrong with that. Also, knowing you are beat (either because you have nothing, or because your opponent shows you his cards) does NOT mean you have to fold. I don't see any "angle-shooting" in Cory's play.
As for mucking your hand before the pot has been awarded, that has been gone over repeatedly in various threads here, and everyone agrees it's a no-no. However, if somebody mucks there hand, you get the pot, whether they have the nuts or not. Showing your hand doesn't automatically win you the pot, only showing your hand AT SHOWDOWN does. While Cory's opponent had the nuts, he folded with action pending - beginner mistake. You make money off your opponents mistakes, whether that is bluffing too much, overplaying hands, or mucking with action pending. If this happened to me, I would've demanded the pot as well - too bad for the player who violated the rules.
Basically, I think these 2 issues (pre-muck chatter and post-muck with the floor) are 2 separate issues and both were resolved correctly. The fact that they occurred back-to-back in the same hand doesn't change anything. And as far as karma goes, that has nothing to do with whether this was resolved correctly.
Personally, I'm most surprised that nobody has mentioned the lack of training by the staff at Seneca. The dealer and 2 floors couldn't get the ruling right, and then somebody else had to come over to resolve it properly. Everyone goes on about how bad Fallsview is and flames 13Cards, but nobody in this thread has once mentioned Seneca's incompetence in this situation. Double standard?
I have to defend Cory here. The fact that many people would muck after making that statement is irrelevant. The hero didn't muck and I have played with him enough to know that he talks constantly during the course of a hand. The other player should not make any assumptions.
People muck the winning hand all the time. It is the player's responsibility to know what the action is at any time. I am sure it is a lesson well learned by his opponent.
One small point - I think it would have made more sense to give him back the entire $50 river bet if you were being a nice guy.
I disagree with that. The dealer certainly never made a mistake and made no attempt to award the pot. I think calling the floor in a situation like this is certainly correct. Even during all the discussion with the floor personnel, the pot was never awarded so again no mistakes were made. Cory was merely trying to get a ruling before he acted on his cards. In the end the pot was awarded correctly.
I assume Cory gave the dealer a nice tip for protecting his pot so nicely for him.
I think the whole point here is at least it was resolved correctly at the table. Seven minutes or not. I wouldn't care how many people were brought in but they did get it correct at the table. I think the dealer could have and should have been able to resolve this but quickly called in the floor. This call wasn't as simple as a dealer knowing who he should deal cards to (which at the most basic level every dealer should know). It seems obvious the suits who are supervising really need a good lesson in poker.
I'll leave the angle shooting alone since Cory doesn't care if people think he was or he wasn't.
The fact he doesn't care and seems to take pride in being awarded a pot to which he wasn't entitled to IMO indicates that it probably was an angle.
If I was at the table I would told you how shitty I thought it was. You are taking money out of the game for all the wrong reasons and it will only hurt the rest of us.
asdjsdfkl
Didn't this happen to you in Vegas, BBC Z? I seem to recall you mucking and then grabbing your cards back to protest a split pot....hmmmmm...
Yup. I tossed them deep into the muck, turned the entire muck face up and then picked my 'pocket aces' out of it. Dunno why everyone got mad.
This forum holds a large quantity of rules nazi's that think the cold letter of the law and not the spirit should be upheld in any situation.
The responses I've read so far have shown me that nothing has changed.
My friend was in a pot against a guy he didn't know but they had been having a friendly talk all night. In a huge pot, my friend rivered a straight flush vs quads. The other guy had no money left to rebuy, but my friend felt so sick he gave him $80 from his pocket. Granted, my friend was already up $500 playing 1/2 NL so he was in a more generous mood. The guy refused, but my friend was adamant until the guy finally accepted. The guy promised to pay him but my friend said 'only if you win'.
The last hand of the night, the same guy won a big pot by filling up vs my friend's flush. The guy not only paid him back but gave him $80 free (my friend was still up a lot so it wasn't like he was hurting). My friend didn't wanna take the free $80 but the guy wouldn't let him leave, lol.
Today, they're good friends. That is karma.
PS in no way am I saying anyone should do what my friend did, it's just a great story about real karma.