when the flop brings a pair on board
In Brantford on my last trip, I noticed that when the flop had two of the same card, invariably EVERYBODY checked around. (lower limits, many seeing the flop)
When I made trips, I checked around too as this kept everybody in and I wound up winning a nice pot. Was this correct or was I giving others a free card? I presumed (but do not know for sure), if I had bet everybody(or most) would have folded.
If the flop did nothing for your hand but everybody checked around, would a steal attempt been worthwhile (maybe with overcards)?
Btw, last time at Brantford, played 5/10, was down about $250, then was ahead $50 and finished down $80. The game, as it does online, seems so much faster than what I would have guessed was need to properly evaluate all the variables and make the correct play based on the books/knowledge I've read. I guess just by practice, most of the decisions become fairly automatic?
When I made trips, I checked around too as this kept everybody in and I wound up winning a nice pot. Was this correct or was I giving others a free card? I presumed (but do not know for sure), if I had bet everybody(or most) would have folded.
If the flop did nothing for your hand but everybody checked around, would a steal attempt been worthwhile (maybe with overcards)?
Btw, last time at Brantford, played 5/10, was down about $250, then was ahead $50 and finished down $80. The game, as it does online, seems so much faster than what I would have guessed was need to properly evaluate all the variables and make the correct play based on the books/knowledge I've read. I guess just by practice, most of the decisions become fairly automatic?
Comments
If I made trips then for sure I bet.
I lean towards the Lee Jones advice to bet trips fast, as it is a vunerable hand, so I will be more likely to bet out if I have trips. I don't want to mess up and let someone draw a flush or straight without paying the maximum, and I'll often have a bunch of callers anyways, so I'm looking to get money into the pot when people are more likely to call because of the lower betting amount. In most low limit games I've been in, several people will call a small bet here and then be looking to fold on the turn at the higher bet amount.
If you check after the flop and it checks around, I find I often get less money in the pot because when I bet out on 4th street people tend to drop their hands unless they have a reasonable drawing hand (i.e. 4 to a flush, correct pot odds to call). So if it checks around I have given a free card, won't get as much money in the pot, and if someone calls it is because they might have a legitimate chance to beat me (straight or flush draw) on the river.
It's true that for a lot of players, if they bet out after the flop it is likely they have two pairs, whereas if they check and then bet on the turn they are more likely to have trips. A lot of players are aware of this though, and it can often be just as deceptive to them that you bet out (they will often put you on two pair) after the flop.
As with all things, the type of game you are in matters, but this seems to be my experience from "typical" low limit games. Interested to see what others think, though.
Should you be more inclined to bet from early position with AT on a Th Ts Jh board or a Th Tc 4d board?
Giving a free card is not nearly as relevant as missing flop bets. It's *highly* likely that those who called you on the turn would have also called the $5 flop bet had there been one. Your nice pot could have been even nicer.
No. No fancy plays.
Betting when you miss and checking when you hit is not good low-limit poker.
Yes, but do take your time if you need to. As you mentioned, it takes a good deal of practice before most plays become automatic.
Also be cautioned that certain players' plays may be automatic simply because they are consistently playing *incorrectly*. For example, a player will seem very speedy if they intend to call 1 bet pre-flop with any two cards. Don't feel the need to play like these players, in terms of either speed or strategy. :cool:
ScottyZ
I guess I've learned/now think about:
1) I suppose if two of one suit flops, you've got to bet to get the draws to either fold or pay for their draw. Same thing if the other card is a connector. (I was talking about a rainbow flop.)
2) Giving a free card is not as important as losing out on potential bets. (since it's easier for people to see the turn for a small bet). But anybody you keep in who stays will be paying the larger bets on the turn and river....
3) What about the size of my kicker? If I have trips but my kicker is less thand a 9 say, then what are the odds another players also has trips but with a higher kicker?
TG
Well, think about it for a sec -- deck's got 52 cards, of which you can, on the flop, see 5, and you know where three of the four target cards are, so it's already only 1 in 47 that there's another set out there. If your kicker is somewhere around the middle then it's basically half those odds again that (s)he's got you outkicked -- call it one in 90. In short, unless you have a good read on a good player that's giving you good signals that they've got a good kicker - unless all that is the case, you're probably... good.
Whenever I think I see a monster around the corner, and keeping in mind that every rule of thumb is only good *most* of the time, I remind myself of this one: if you flop a set and lose, and don't lose a lot of money, you played it wrong.
[Edit: I'm an idiot of course, since most people play hold'em with more than one card, and at any rate, there's often more than one of them playing. I think the advice is salvageable though, if you just ignore the math
A better approximation (though still not quite right) is N in 47, where N is the total number of hole cards currently out in the opponents' hands.
I agree with the general point though... the chances that someone else also has trips (usually what people call a "set" is a pocket pair that makes 3 of a kind) are slim enough to proceed under the assumption that you probably have the best hand until you face a lot of heat that would suggest otherwise.
Edit:
That's the ticket.
ScottyZ