Am I too passive on this hand?
Current Number of Players: 8
UncleErnesto start position: 62.50
allyasia start position: 56.90
WrzWaldo start position: 41.95
smileyguy38 start position: 43.35
PokerDude start position: 50.00
CLAYMAN604 start position: 13.10
SamtheLamb start position: 13.85
Revitox start position: 50.30
allyasia posts small blind (0.25)
UncleErnesto posts big blind (0.50)
PokerDude posts (0.50)
allyasia is dealt down [7c Jc]
Revitox folds
SamtheLamb folds
CLAYMAN604 folds
PokerDude checks
smileyguy38 folds
WrzWaldo folds
allyasia calls (0.50)
UncleErnesto checks
flop: [3c 9s Js]
allyasia bets (1.45) <-flop top pair, lead out.
UncleErnesto raises to (2.90) <- can't give him any credit, he like to raise me, because i cbet alot.
PokerDude raises to (4.35) <- he may has the same read, and figure i have nothing, and uncleErnesto has nothing. or he has set of 3 or 9.
allyasia calls (4.35)
UncleErnesto folds
turn: [Jd]
allyasia checks <-just in case, if i bet, he goes all-in. i have to fold, i want to see it cheaply, if i can connect my kicker, i definely can double up here.
PokerDude bets (5) <-cheap enough
allyasia calls (5)
river: [Tc] <- can't really put him on straight draw
allyasia checks
PokerDude bets (10)
allyasia calls (10) <- $10 into $33 pot. if he has boat or higher J, so be it, i have good odds to call with my trips.
PokerDude shows [9d 3s] for two pair, jacks and nines
This made me wondering, if i am too passive here, should i raise him on the river for value? i can't really put him on bottom two pair, because turn J has counterfit his bottom two, and he bet out on the turn, and river, knowing i gotta have a J to call that turn bet.
allyasia shows [7c Jc] for three of a kind, jacks
allyasia wins (40.95)
rake is (2.15)
Revitox end position: 50.30
SamtheLamb end position: 13.85
CLAYMAN604 end position: 13.10
PokerDude end position: 30.15
smileyguy38 end position: 43.35
WrzWaldo end position: 41.95
allyasia end position: 78.00
UncleErnesto end position: 59.10
Hand end time: 2007-07-27 07:27:12
UncleErnesto start position: 62.50
allyasia start position: 56.90
WrzWaldo start position: 41.95
smileyguy38 start position: 43.35
PokerDude start position: 50.00
CLAYMAN604 start position: 13.10
SamtheLamb start position: 13.85
Revitox start position: 50.30
allyasia posts small blind (0.25)
UncleErnesto posts big blind (0.50)
PokerDude posts (0.50)
allyasia is dealt down [7c Jc]
Revitox folds
SamtheLamb folds
CLAYMAN604 folds
PokerDude checks
smileyguy38 folds
WrzWaldo folds
allyasia calls (0.50)
UncleErnesto checks
flop: [3c 9s Js]
allyasia bets (1.45) <-flop top pair, lead out.
UncleErnesto raises to (2.90) <- can't give him any credit, he like to raise me, because i cbet alot.
PokerDude raises to (4.35) <- he may has the same read, and figure i have nothing, and uncleErnesto has nothing. or he has set of 3 or 9.
allyasia calls (4.35)
UncleErnesto folds
turn: [Jd]
allyasia checks <-just in case, if i bet, he goes all-in. i have to fold, i want to see it cheaply, if i can connect my kicker, i definely can double up here.
PokerDude bets (5) <-cheap enough
allyasia calls (5)
river: [Tc] <- can't really put him on straight draw
allyasia checks
PokerDude bets (10)
allyasia calls (10) <- $10 into $33 pot. if he has boat or higher J, so be it, i have good odds to call with my trips.
PokerDude shows [9d 3s] for two pair, jacks and nines
This made me wondering, if i am too passive here, should i raise him on the river for value? i can't really put him on bottom two pair, because turn J has counterfit his bottom two, and he bet out on the turn, and river, knowing i gotta have a J to call that turn bet.
allyasia shows [7c Jc] for three of a kind, jacks
allyasia wins (40.95)
rake is (2.15)
Revitox end position: 50.30
SamtheLamb end position: 13.85
CLAYMAN604 end position: 13.10
PokerDude end position: 30.15
smileyguy38 end position: 43.35
WrzWaldo end position: 41.95
allyasia end position: 78.00
UncleErnesto end position: 59.10
Hand end time: 2007-07-27 07:27:12
Comments
I am history after the flop. After a raise and a re-raise...even with your "reads", you have to ask yourself while looking at your TPNK...
What hands could I possibly be ahead of?
aye i would have been out on the flop bet, raise, reraise for sure with my TPSK (<- top pair shit kicker).
despite that though, i would have also check/called the turn, and yes i would have bet immediately on the river. check/raising is a tool that i find way too overused in the wrong situations. unless i have the nuts (or i'm almost 100% sure i have the best hand) i'm probably not going to check/raise on the river.
But after tripping your Js you definately should have made more money being more aggressive. It would have been hard to reraise the turn though without announcing you have a J. So I support your check there. But I don't like your check/call on the river though. Everything he had done thus far said he was going to bet again on the river. If you were sure about that then I like the check raise here. If I was unsure I would have bet the river right away. But after his 10 bet I would have definately tried to suck a few more dollars from him.
You have to consider that he was happy with his hand on the flop... he likely made his hand there and didn't improve it. I would have suspected 2 pair or A J, K J or Q J or trips. When the J comes on the turn I'd rule out him having the last J, it's by far most likely hidden in the deck (others may not agree). The 10 probably didn't give him the straight... that was too aggressive to only have an inside draw. I would have been willing to risk it all in that position so I would not be afraid to check raise or any other move you felt you could use to get the most chips in play in that situation. The problem with just betting on the river first is you might not get that $10 more as he may have to finally put you on the J and cut his losses.
I doubt you would have made anymore as a reraise should confirm for him that you have the J. Getting those few extra bucks is what seperates the good from the great but if you don't even try you certainly can't get them
Preflop: You could have taken control with more aggression preflop. If you took the lead preflop your c-bet gets more respect. Plus you probably are not playing against junk like 93o anymore.
The Flop: The way the hand played out you should have folded to the Re-raise on the flop. I do not see how you possibly be ahead here and are probably drawing really thin at best. Your initial bet is good but when you get popped twice your hand is way to weak to keep playing. When you called what were you wanting to see on the turn? I don't think that there are any cards that will make you feel comfortable.
The Turn: You are uncommortable because most hands that were ahead of you on the flop are still ahead of you on the turn. You shouldn't be here. The thought of calling down to keep the pot small is a good one in some situations but I still don't think you should be using it here. Your read was a bluff or a set. Considering your read, I think you bet out at the turn, hence saying I have the jack and fold if your opponent continues to show strength. If your opponent slows down (calls) then you should be confident that you are now ahead and bet the river.
The River: By the time you're here, check calling small bets seems okay but again you should not have gotten here. What if you opponent made a large bet? Other than the case J or a 9 what cards do you want to see here?
In summary, you're feeling passive because you had no idea where you were at during any point in the hand. You sucked out here and got lucky your opponent had the one and only hand you had any chance of catching.
Well put.
I think it should have been a raise preflop, and an insta-fold to the re-raise on the flop. I think your opponent should have bet a little more on the turn, but he shows weakness so I don't hate check-calling once you were there. (though you shouldn't have been there) Betting the river sort of silly, for you or your opponent.
From 9-3s perspective- What hands flat call a re-raise that don't have him crushed, and could pay him off on the river?
At anyrate, I think you call the river just because he did the retarded: weak bet the scare card, and exactly double it the next street thing..which either means uncertainty or the stone cold nuts. (which we know are impossible, since we have a J) We're usually ahead of 'uncertainty' with our J.
The whole hand is nonsensical.
Is J7 sooooted worth a raise here out of position? Keep in mind this is a cash game, not a tournament.
This is possibly just my preference (seeing cheap flops with speculative hands).
And yes....I realize I have just hijacked the thread.
This is what makes the flop call terrible.. Theres no raise preflop, so why are you getting involved in a big pot?
reason i am getting involved.
3.5:1 pot odds. on the flop, and folded if i didn't improve on the turn.
on the Turn 3.62:1 pot odds to call when i improve, and i did, but i don't feel i'm strong enough to lead out.
River 3.31:1 pot odds
are those odds enough to call here? or i'm just simply use pot odds the wrong way?
*i can't find any books that discuss about pot odds other then odds on str8/flush draws.
i did like to know
what's good odds to call the rag flop with nothing but over card.
what's good odds too call the rag flop with top pair or top set on a 3 suited board.
let's say, everybody fold but you and the other guy, and you have position. and he lead out.
are the odds to call change when you don't have position?
You should have folded on the flop.
You have TPNK.
Even though you don't give UncleErnesto any credit you put PokerDude on a set which means you need runner-runner to beat him.
Even so the reraise says that he likes his hand and probably at the very least has you out kicked.