Verbal Declarations

Here's a new topic that I would like to get everyone's opinion on so I hope there is a lot of feedback! Who uses verbal declarations and where? I know they can be a definate "tell" and therefore I try not to say anything out loud if I don't have to. Where I run into problems is smaller run (home-type/community-type) tournies where there is no dealer and players have the responsibility. It seems the dealer/player can't figure out what the player is doing...calling or raising and most don't even want the responsibility of counting the chips for the players like the "real" casino dealers do and they are forcing the player to speak to answer their questions thereby giving the other player(s) a chance to possibly get a tell from the tone of your voice.

Comments

  • Most Poker Rooms here in AB rule that you must declare a raise verbally. Otherwise, your action is deemed a call regardless of how many chips you put out. That being said I will usually just annouce "Raise" then put chips out in front of me. If I am calling or checking (and folding for that matter) I do not say a word. Unless I drinking, then I can't see to keep my mouth shut!
  • sweetjimmi wrote: »
    Most Poker Rooms here in AB rule that you must declare a raise verbally. Otherwise, your action is deemed a call regardless of how many chips you put out....

    Seems a bit extreme. Do you have to say the word "Raise" or can you just say an amount larger than the bet (ie: the bet is $25 when it gets to me and I say "$175". Would that be a raise?
  • 13CARDS wrote: »
    SDo you have to say the word "Raise" or can you just say an amount larger than the bet ?

    That would work fine. You would saying more than you need too.
  • sweetjimmi wrote: »
    That would work fine. You would saying more than you need too.


    Really? So saying "$175" would be considered a raise but pushing out $175 in chips would not be considered a raise? That seems counterproductive...
  • 13CARDS wrote: »
    Really? So saying "$175" would be considered a raise but pushing out $175 in chips would not be considered a raise? That seems counterproductive...

    The idea is to stop angle shooting. Just the other day I threw out a 3BB raise UTG with QQ. Right away the dealer said call. DOH!
  • sweetjimmi wrote: »
    The idea is to stop angle shooting. Just the other day I threw out a 3BB raise UTG with QQ. Right away the dealer said call. DOH!

    And just what "angle" are you shooting?
  • If you pushed the chips out in one motion then that would be a raise. If you put out enough chips to call then put the rest out to raise it would be a call....

    As an aside I usually say raise, then sit back and see what I"m going to do.....
  • AcidJoe wrote: »
    If you pushed the chips out in one motion then that would be a raise.

    But no Joe, if you read the thread sweetjimmi says that most poker rooms in AB will only allow a raise if verbal declared (pushing out chips is not sufficient).
  • AcidJoe wrote: »
    If you pushed the chips out in one motion then that would be a raise. If you put out enough chips to call then put the rest out to raise it would be a call....

    One more to add,...If you put out an oversize chip (say 500$ chip with blinds at 50 100) without any verbal declaration of a raise, it's just a call. Around here that is.

    I don't think it makes much sense in AB to make them verbalize ANY raise, even when it's done with multiple chips. Once you know that's the rule though, live with it I guess.

    As to the original question, if you are consistent with the words you choose, and the tone of voice, inflection, loudness etc...each time you declare anything verbally, there shouldn't be too much risk of giving away tells. Most of the time I think that overall body language and specific eye and hand movements are much better places to look for physical tells than someones voice anyway.

    sstar
  • sstar wrote: »
    One more to add,...If you put out an oversize chip (say 500$ chip with blinds at 50 100) without any verbal declaration of a raise, it's just a call. Around here that is.

    What if you already have one or more chips in?

    Example:

    Blinds are 100 and 200. MP raises to 400. SB calls (with 4 chips). BB makes it 800. MP folds. SB throws in one 1000 chip (adding to his 4 100 chips). SB has 3 stacks of 100 chips available to use. Is this a call or a raise? There is enough in front of the SB to cover the minimum raise. SB only placed one chip in (on the last round). SB already had 4 other chips in there. NO VERBAL DECLARATIONS!! Call? Or raise?
  • if you are a newbie at a casino, i would verbalize your intent......i verbalize , raise, call ..nonverbalize fold or check
  • 13CARDS wrote: »
    What if you already have one or more chips in?

    Example:

    Blinds are 100 and 200. MP raises to 400. SB calls (with 4 chips). BB makes it 800. MP folds. SB throws in one 1000 chip (adding to his 4 100 chips). SB has 3 stacks of 100 chips available to use. Is this a call or a raise? There is enough in front of the SB to cover the minimum raise. SB only placed one chip in (on the last round). SB already had 4 other chips in there. NO VERBAL DECLARATIONS!! Call? Or raise?

    That's a raise of 600. Since there is more than one chip in front of him, it's not a SINGLE chip, therefore, whether he meant it or not, he just re raised.

    sstar
  • sstar wrote: »
    That's a raise of 600. Since there is more than one chip in front of him, it's not a SINGLE chip, therefore, whether he meant it or not, he just re raised.

    sstar
    In my poker rooms I would consider that a call. To me the 'one chip call' rule is the number of chips he throws in the pot. Chips he already has in the pot aren't his anymore, that's my logic.
  • But if he wanted to call, he should have just put in 4 more 100 chips, which he had plenty of. By choosing to put out his 1000 chip, he's raising. I agree that it doesn't make sense the way the action went, but you can't really know what he intends, according to his actions, he decided to raise.

    The one chips rule refers to just that, a single chip. The pot isn't in the middle of the table yet, so all the chips in front of him are his bets/calls/raises.
    Also, if he wanted to just call using his 1000 chip, he would have pulled out his 4 100 chips and expected to get some change back. By leaving them AND the 1000 chip in, it indicates a raise.
  • What if his 400 chips were in the pot in the middle, then is it just a call?

    /g2
  • In casino play, the chips aren't pushed to the middle until all bets and raises have been matched. In many home games and some clubs they sometimes pull in everything that has already been matched, but it's improper procedure.

    So, his chips shouldn't BE in the middle yet, but if they were, he should know, or the dealer should tell him, that it's 400 more to call. When he puts out a 1000 chip instead, I still see it as a raise of 600, but it's trickier to argue my side if the chips have been put into the middle. But again, by putting in that 1000 chip, he's what? expecting 600 in change? That doesn't make much sense when he has 30 100 chips in front of him.

    Fun talking about it though!! Till tomorrow.

    Sean
  • I think I'm looking at it more from a cash game perspective than a tournament perspective Sean. In a tournament I might be more inclined to consider it a raise. But in a cash game, definitely not.

    /g2
  • The chips he has behind are not part of the equation ( I added that info to throw people off!). You are right, you cannot know his intention and therefore must assume a CALL not a raise.

    And dealers that bring in matched amounts are doing it the BETTER way, whether correct or not by each casino's procedures.

    In my example, the 1000 chip is a CALL at my poker room.
  • sweetjimmi wrote: »
    The idea is to stop angle shooting. Just the other day I threw out a 3BB raise UTG with QQ. Right away the dealer said call. DOH!

    That's dumb. If anything it promotes angle shooting. If you want to see where you are at for cheap just shove all your chips in. 'Oops...is that a call? My bad'
  • Agreed on all points. As a dealer, I sometimes pull in or segregate the matched chips as I am not aware of any rules against this.
    13CARDS wrote: »
    The chips he has behind are not part of the equation ( I added that info to throw people off!). You are right, you cannot know his intention and therefore must assume a CALL not a raise.

    And dealers that bring in matched amounts are doing it the BETTER way, whether correct or not by each casino's procedures.

    In my example, the 1000 chip is a CALL at my poker room.
  • Good comments so far. I know our Canadian casinos are strange at best with rules (I'm from BC) but I play a fair bit in Vegas. At Caesars, Binions and IP anyway that I have experienced, at a cash table, if say the blinds are 1/2 NL and you toss in 2 $5 chips you say nothing and the dealer says raised to $10 etc. Did you see the televised Ladies tournie last week where Jennifer Harman comments about one of the "less experienced players" that she could tell just from the way they said "Raise" that it sounded more like a question and she could get the tell right away what the player was doing. She also mentioned that it is the very inexperienced player that verbalizes their declaration. I only play recreational no-limit tournies so I'm never too worried over tells myself because they don't cost much to enter. I enjoy limit cash tables usually as their really stress free in Vegas (and in Canada too for that matter)!
  • what Harmon said is her opinion....but in Brantford verbal declarations were quite common, in vegas tournaments i played in May, same thing..i played at the Hollywood, same thing...and i don,t think any of these players were inexperienced.jmo
  • sstar wrote: »
    One more to add,...If you put out an oversize chip (say 500$ chip with blinds at 50 100) without any verbal declaration of a raise, it's just a call. Around here that is.
    sstar

    The same rule applied in Vegas Poker rooms..one chip...oversized or not, is considered a call if there is no verbal declaration to raise
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