10% rake is high. Spin it (aka market it) however you want, the players will tell you if it's too high or not by not attending. If the market supports it, congrats. If it doesn't, well g'luck.
If a casino, who has to pay a hell of a lot more fixed costs than some club in nowhere, can survive at 5% I doubt there's any real argument as to why 10% is valid.
Casinos have the other games to make its money for them. Poker is there just for marketing purposes.
Is 10% the big issue though, I thought is was the max rake that people were complaining about.
Strongly agree with both of BBC Z's points. Unless you are a gambling addict who doesn't mind continually donating your money in -EV situations and crapshoots, then rake or cost is one of the important factors to consider in choosing among the numerous games available.
If you don't understand that the rake is a HUGE drag on winrate, then you should stop playing immediately.
Why would anyone do that? I want to play against the worst players imaginable. If you play against good players with a huge rake, YOU ALL LOSE.
If your objective is to win money, then you want to play against horrible players who will give you many opportunities to take their money instead of playing against great players who make correct decisions. If you are lucky enough to find a place where the worst players go instead of "the best in the city", a high rake does not become irrelevant but it becomes easier to come out ahead DESPITE the high rake.
See what I started I guess rake is probably a subject that should be discussed as a separate topic on this forum. I didn't mean for it to be isolated to the Unit. It seems to have a life of its own now.
See what I started I guess rake is probably a subject that should be discussed as a separate topic on this forum. I didn't mean for it to be isolated to the Unit. It seems to have a life of its own now.
Casino's make a killing off the rake. If a casino has a $5 max rake, it probably makes $100+ per table per hour; if it is running 10 tables then it is making $1000 an hour. Now I know it can't hold the game for 24/hours a day. But $1000 an hour, I think it could easily crack $10,000 a day especially on weekends.
Play long enough, the rake takes everyone's money. The reason there is still money on the table is because people are always re-buying or new players are bringing in fresh money. Trust me, play long enough, the rake takes everyone's money; unless you re-buy.
Strongly agree with both of BBC Z's points. Unless you are a gambling addict who doesn't mind continually donating your money in -EV situations and crapshoots, then rake or cost is one of the important factors to consider in choosing among the numerous games available.
If your objective is to win money, then you want to play against horrible players who will give you many opportunities to take their money instead of playing against great players who make correct decisions. If you are lucky enough to find a place where the worst players go instead of "the best in the city", a high rake does not become irrelevant but it becomes easier to come out ahead DESPITE the high rake.
I agree with you that playing bad players can compensate for a high rake. Alot of players like to do the "hit and run" scenerio.
Is 10% the big issue though, I thought is was the max rake that people were complaining about.
put a 10% max $10 rake together and you've got an unstoppable cash generating force for the house, and an unstoppable suction sound coming out of everyones wallets.
But yer right, if it was 10% max $5 it'd be less of an issue..
Trust me, play long enough, the rake takes everyone's money; unless you re-buy.
I was thinking about this the other day. If you had ten players sitting at a poker table, each starting with $300 in chips playing $1/$2, with no rebuys, how long would it take before the house had everyone's chips (except the last player standing)? Next time you play in a cash game, watch the number of $5 chips that the dealer drop in the house slot. One other major observation, how often do you see a player catching a dealer raking too much from the pot. It happens all the time but players are oblivious to it or maybe they are afraid to make a scene.
put a 10% max $10 rake together and you've got an unstoppable cash generating force for the house, and an unstoppable suction sound coming out of everyones wallets.
But yer right, if it was 10% max $5 it'd be less of an issue..
Thanks for seeing my point about a 10% on $10 max rake.
Its NL for goodness sakes, It is very easy to get the pot to $100 for the house to rake the max of $10. There are lots of big bets and bluffs.
Some people take a little time to call, but its not like they take too long to call. The Unit has good dealers, they can probably deal 20-30 hands an hour even when people sometimes need time to call an "all-in" hand.
I wouldn't be surprised if a dealer could rake $200 an hour.
I appreciate the feedback, as this thread took on a life of it's own.
Thanks to those who agreed with me in part, even though my rant was strong at times. The kind words mean alot....and some of you know me....and it is nice hearing from you.....
my result on thisrake thing is this....10% max 10$ is not excessive. I am in the industry (underground anyway) so I see it smell it and taste it everyday. It haunts me in my dreams...my business is poker, and putting together big games and tourneys. I am not prfessing 10 max 10 is ok becasue I am byass....I am saying it cause that is standard amongst clubs.....have you found a 5% max 5 club or 10 max 5 club.....it is rare, and is probably low scale. If you can get there easily and enjoy the game, than go for it.
I find that our clientell in general and in majority are poker players that will participate once or 2wice a week, and have the income to do so, so I rarely see the consumer conscious player, which is why I think it makes me look sideways when I come across it. We run with people who travel to circuit events, and play monthly main events all over the continent, and are always trying to score enough to pay for thier next trip to the WPT at Foxwoods, or WSOP circuit event.....or the 25-50NL game at Niagara. These guys are in the mix on a larger scale. They seem to be able to afford to chase that stuff down. at our club our tuesdayt 150 and thursday 250 freezeouts cost 400 a week to play. for some a paycheck.
This is why I think I have not been exposed to too many smaller game players lately. when our 5-5nl game starts,....and hour in there is 10K on the table, and it grows...people tend to care less about the 5 extra bucks that drops off the average 200$ pot. well you get the idea. You are right when you say it is what the market will bear.
This whole thread started because an individual tried to affect The UNITS good market by bad mouthing them. Let the market decide.....dont spew shit and keep people from deciding themselves. They will come if it is a good place....and they do.
As for playing against good players......2 schools of thought. You want donkeys to pay you off. I am a student of the game....I want to get better....improve...start to walk and talk amongst poker elite. It is a dream. At our club certain players earn verbal and demostrative respect for their track records. the same guys show up for a year and earn respect at the big US events they play in......it is the next level out there, and that is what I am chasing.
I will not get there by playing with donkeys....you mostly can expect a headache from them. In a NL game, a donkey will clean you out just as easily as you will clean him out. Cards do the talking sometimes.......
NOW TALK LIMIT POKER....and yes maybe I'd like to have a few of you NL internet junkies who showed up on the scene well after LIMIT took a back seat. I will sit with the LIL GANGSTAS at that table.
You would all be surprised to know that LIMIT is where alot of pro's and full time grinders wish to put their cash game money. It is a different game, the Swings arent as heavy, and tha skilled mathmetician, in the long run will start to benefit from favourable math, that wont clean you out like a NL game will when despite your 17 outer on the flop. With a capped loss structure of limit.....in the long run you take your lumps, but realize returns from keeping faith in the percentages. Limit lets you play the percentages religiously without going broke when you miss. The formula is undeniable.
Off on a tangent......my point was I prefer to play with the sharks, so I can begin to swim like one.....I am a student of the game, and dont need the game to pay my car lease. It is a whole different perspective when winning is the only option. And I sense I am talking to a few people here that want to win....not for the sake of winning.....but more for the need for gain....which is also fine I guess. To me it just seems to be the "ONe Trick Pony" approach. There is so much more to the poker world I have seen since being immersed in the bigger stuff WSOP circuits, and travelling events.
Perhaps in my own way I have become byass, beacuase while a good 1-2 NL game is nothing to shake a stick at.......for me it is Spinning wheels.....boring....and the same old same old......I can only wish this hunger on all of you to bring your game to the next level, and see beyond cashing 200 big ones off the donkey in seat 3..... 2 times a week. POKER HAS BECOME SO MUCH MORE IN THE WAY OF SPORT THAN THAT.
as for hands per hour.......I fill out dealers sheets at my club when they come out of the box.....a NL game can expect apporximately 12-16 hands in a half hour shift. Not every pot maxes out rake....certainly not in 1-2. Most hands dont get to the river....some not even to a flop......and some take 10 minutes. Thats NL for ya.
Also let it be known that most clubs run 2 -3 nights a week. Mine 2. that means we only get together to fill the rake box 8 times out of 30 days. Just to survive and keep the doors open (Rent and expenses et all) we need 3 of those night dont argue this one...I PAY THE BILLS.
That leaves 5 nights a month.....5 out of 30.....to make a living for several partners. Anyone who will begint o deny me that leway to run a business and do the best we can in those 5 nights.....can kiss my CULO.
We dont wat to rip people off... it is exactly the opposite...running successfull for those 5 measly nigths out of 30 means treating people right......promoting them to come back.....making people enjoy it all.....not taking advantage.....if people felt we were fleecing them night after night....we would not have a business. So clubs like the UNIT and ours will play out the lifecycle of the market and hope we can bring the action out and provide a great product for as long as circumstances allow.
As for jackpot, we pay out 250$ every night to high hand.....It is not a cash grab.....that money goes back to the players......or at least the ones who hit the bad beats of royals.....please dont think it is a cash grab.......
and to tell the truth....I woudl remove it altogether if players felt the way you guys did about just leaving it in the pot. Maybe I will poll the crowd on the issue in the comming weeks.
I hate to do it but I agree with Josh here.... HI Josh. I have several poker clubs within 10 minutes of my office. If I leave work to go to the casino I have a 141 KM drive to niagara or a 115 km drive to rama. That time in the car is worth something to me. From the club I'm just over a half hour home, not so from either casino. I (usually) have minimal down time at the club to get a seat compared to the casinos. This is the rake of life. IF I burn 1/4 tank of gas in my truck to get to the casino this is part of the rake not to mention my time to get there and back.
You all talk about playing bad players, I can set you up in a game with the worst..... Where 1 player will cash his runner runner flush and 2 will hang in with a gut shot..... pot sized bets get no respect...... you win big or lose big play 1/2 NL no fold'em hold'em. You want to see frustrating, play that game. IN the long haul it's +EV but the variance there is huge. This game is rake free outside of the $5 the house takes from every player for food.
You all talk about playing bad players, I can set you up in a game with the worst..... Where 1 player will cash his runner runner flush and 2 will hang in with a gut shot..... pot sized bets get no respect...... This game is rake free outside of the $5 the house takes from every player for food.
Jah, you know the players..... the typical Bradford calling stations. PM me if you want to play in it and I'll send you the details. It is in my neck of the woods.
RiverRatJosh, definitely seems like your club has too many owners. You have 5 owners, the Unit has 2 owners.
The Unit does not pay rent either, so they are much smarter at running a club than you are.
Anyways, from an owner's standpoint, a $10 rake might be needed since an underground club does not run as many tables as a casino. Does not run as many days as a casino, and does not run as many hours as a casino.
From an owner's standpoint, you might need a $10 rake; especially if your 1/2 NL game isn't too strong.
RiverRatJosh is an A+ character, as are Jay and Two. I know all three of them and would vouch for them.
That being said, I always ask about the Rake. As a customer at their poker club, and having played poker for a living for upwards of 5 years now, I am always conscious of the rake in any game.
Failing to take account of the rake is a major leak. Rake turns some close +EV calls into folds. That being said, A rake that is too high is simply unbeatable over the long run. You may beat the game in the short term, but if the rake is too high, there is too much money being taken out of the pot. 10% max $10 in a 1-2 game is a very bad rake. 10% max $10 in a 5-5 game is an ok rake. $15 max is terrible and $20 is unbeatable unless someone is allin every hand.
Here are a couple things to think about when the rake is high such as at poker clubs:
Loose players pay more rake than tight players. Loose players win more small pots and therefore will be paying the full 10% in rake in most pots they win. Tight players win less pots but bigger pots and will usually cap out the rake, thus taking advantage of the cap and giving themselves a discount on the rake.
If you're getting raked badly, consider reducing your tips. I tip $1-2 a hand, no matter how big. If I have a monster night, I might tip $5-10 extra at the end of the night. Tipping $5 a hand to a dealer every $50 pot you win that didn't see the turn card is ludicrous. It takes money off the table and more importantly makes everyone else look cheap. If you're there to gamble and be entertained, tip away, but if you're there to make money, consider the tip as part of the rake, and don't be paying more rake than you need to or the dealer deserves.
The higher rake is due to the added risk of a SWAT team breaking down your door. It's a black market, and there is a black market tax. The profit margin on an average ounce of pot are upwards of 35%, a number unheard of in any legal industry. This is the exact same thing; an illegal product filling a demand in the market. There is significant risk to the entrepreneur and you, as customer, will pay to mitigate that risk.
The real crux of the issue is this: if you don't want to pay the higher rake, drive to Niagara.
Comments
Casinos have the other games to make its money for them. Poker is there just for marketing purposes.
Is 10% the big issue though, I thought is was the max rake that people were complaining about.
If your objective is to win money, then you want to play against horrible players who will give you many opportunities to take their money instead of playing against great players who make correct decisions. If you are lucky enough to find a place where the worst players go instead of "the best in the city", a high rake does not become irrelevant but it becomes easier to come out ahead DESPITE the high rake.
See what I started
Casino's make a killing off the rake. If a casino has a $5 max rake, it probably makes $100+ per table per hour; if it is running 10 tables then it is making $1000 an hour. Now I know it can't hold the game for 24/hours a day. But $1000 an hour, I think it could easily crack $10,000 a day especially on weekends.
Play long enough, the rake takes everyone's money. The reason there is still money on the table is because people are always re-buying or new players are bringing in fresh money. Trust me, play long enough, the rake takes everyone's money; unless you re-buy.
I agree with you that playing bad players can compensate for a high rake. Alot of players like to do the "hit and run" scenerio.
put a 10% max $10 rake together and you've got an unstoppable cash generating force for the house, and an unstoppable suction sound coming out of everyones wallets.
But yer right, if it was 10% max $5 it'd be less of an issue..
I was thinking about this the other day. If you had ten players sitting at a poker table, each starting with $300 in chips playing $1/$2, with no rebuys, how long would it take before the house had everyone's chips (except the last player standing)? Next time you play in a cash game, watch the number of $5 chips that the dealer drop in the house slot. One other major observation, how often do you see a player catching a dealer raking too much from the pot. It happens all the time but players are oblivious to it or maybe they are afraid to make a scene.
Thanks for seeing my point about a 10% on $10 max rake.
Its NL for goodness sakes, It is very easy to get the pot to $100 for the house to rake the max of $10. There are lots of big bets and bluffs.
Some people take a little time to call, but its not like they take too long to call. The Unit has good dealers, they can probably deal 20-30 hands an hour even when people sometimes need time to call an "all-in" hand.
I wouldn't be surprised if a dealer could rake $200 an hour.
Thanks to those who agreed with me in part, even though my rant was strong at times. The kind words mean alot....and some of you know me....and it is nice hearing from you.....
my result on thisrake thing is this....10% max 10$ is not excessive. I am in the industry (underground anyway) so I see it smell it and taste it everyday. It haunts me in my dreams...my business is poker, and putting together big games and tourneys. I am not prfessing 10 max 10 is ok becasue I am byass....I am saying it cause that is standard amongst clubs.....have you found a 5% max 5 club or 10 max 5 club.....it is rare, and is probably low scale. If you can get there easily and enjoy the game, than go for it.
I find that our clientell in general and in majority are poker players that will participate once or 2wice a week, and have the income to do so, so I rarely see the consumer conscious player, which is why I think it makes me look sideways when I come across it. We run with people who travel to circuit events, and play monthly main events all over the continent, and are always trying to score enough to pay for thier next trip to the WPT at Foxwoods, or WSOP circuit event.....or the 25-50NL game at Niagara. These guys are in the mix on a larger scale. They seem to be able to afford to chase that stuff down. at our club our tuesdayt 150 and thursday 250 freezeouts cost 400 a week to play. for some a paycheck.
This is why I think I have not been exposed to too many smaller game players lately. when our 5-5nl game starts,....and hour in there is 10K on the table, and it grows...people tend to care less about the 5 extra bucks that drops off the average 200$ pot. well you get the idea. You are right when you say it is what the market will bear.
This whole thread started because an individual tried to affect The UNITS good market by bad mouthing them. Let the market decide.....dont spew shit and keep people from deciding themselves. They will come if it is a good place....and they do.
As for playing against good players......2 schools of thought. You want donkeys to pay you off. I am a student of the game....I want to get better....improve...start to walk and talk amongst poker elite. It is a dream. At our club certain players earn verbal and demostrative respect for their track records. the same guys show up for a year and earn respect at the big US events they play in......it is the next level out there, and that is what I am chasing.
I will not get there by playing with donkeys....you mostly can expect a headache from them. In a NL game, a donkey will clean you out just as easily as you will clean him out. Cards do the talking sometimes.......
NOW TALK LIMIT POKER....and yes maybe I'd like to have a few of you NL internet junkies who showed up on the scene well after LIMIT took a back seat. I will sit with the LIL GANGSTAS at that table.
You would all be surprised to know that LIMIT is where alot of pro's and full time grinders wish to put their cash game money. It is a different game, the Swings arent as heavy, and tha skilled mathmetician, in the long run will start to benefit from favourable math, that wont clean you out like a NL game will when despite your 17 outer on the flop. With a capped loss structure of limit.....in the long run you take your lumps, but realize returns from keeping faith in the percentages. Limit lets you play the percentages religiously without going broke when you miss. The formula is undeniable.
Off on a tangent......my point was I prefer to play with the sharks, so I can begin to swim like one.....I am a student of the game, and dont need the game to pay my car lease. It is a whole different perspective when winning is the only option. And I sense I am talking to a few people here that want to win....not for the sake of winning.....but more for the need for gain....which is also fine I guess. To me it just seems to be the "ONe Trick Pony" approach. There is so much more to the poker world I have seen since being immersed in the bigger stuff WSOP circuits, and travelling events.
Perhaps in my own way I have become byass, beacuase while a good 1-2 NL game is nothing to shake a stick at.......for me it is Spinning wheels.....boring....and the same old same old......I can only wish this hunger on all of you to bring your game to the next level, and see beyond cashing 200 big ones off the donkey in seat 3..... 2 times a week. POKER HAS BECOME SO MUCH MORE IN THE WAY OF SPORT THAN THAT.
Also let it be known that most clubs run 2 -3 nights a week. Mine 2. that means we only get together to fill the rake box 8 times out of 30 days. Just to survive and keep the doors open (Rent and expenses et all) we need 3 of those night dont argue this one...I PAY THE BILLS.
That leaves 5 nights a month.....5 out of 30.....to make a living for several partners. Anyone who will begint o deny me that leway to run a business and do the best we can in those 5 nights.....can kiss my CULO.
We dont wat to rip people off... it is exactly the opposite...running successfull for those 5 measly nigths out of 30 means treating people right......promoting them to come back.....making people enjoy it all.....not taking advantage.....if people felt we were fleecing them night after night....we would not have a business. So clubs like the UNIT and ours will play out the lifecycle of the market and hope we can bring the action out and provide a great product for as long as circumstances allow.
As for jackpot, we pay out 250$ every night to high hand.....It is not a cash grab.....that money goes back to the players......or at least the ones who hit the bad beats of royals.....please dont think it is a cash grab.......
and to tell the truth....I woudl remove it altogether if players felt the way you guys did about just leaving it in the pot. Maybe I will poll the crowd on the issue in the comming weeks.
You all talk about playing bad players, I can set you up in a game with the worst..... Where 1 player will cash his runner runner flush and 2 will hang in with a gut shot..... pot sized bets get no respect...... you win big or lose big play 1/2 NL no fold'em hold'em. You want to see frustrating, play that game. IN the long haul it's +EV but the variance there is huge. This game is rake free outside of the $5 the house takes from every player for food.
Send me the details on that one Joe
The Unit does not pay rent either, so they are much smarter at running a club than you are.
Anyways, from an owner's standpoint, a $10 rake might be needed since an underground club does not run as many tables as a casino. Does not run as many days as a casino, and does not run as many hours as a casino.
From an owner's standpoint, you might need a $10 rake; especially if your 1/2 NL game isn't too strong.
That being said, I always ask about the Rake. As a customer at their poker club, and having played poker for a living for upwards of 5 years now, I am always conscious of the rake in any game.
Failing to take account of the rake is a major leak. Rake turns some close +EV calls into folds. That being said, A rake that is too high is simply unbeatable over the long run. You may beat the game in the short term, but if the rake is too high, there is too much money being taken out of the pot. 10% max $10 in a 1-2 game is a very bad rake. 10% max $10 in a 5-5 game is an ok rake. $15 max is terrible and $20 is unbeatable unless someone is allin every hand.
Here are a couple things to think about when the rake is high such as at poker clubs:
Loose players pay more rake than tight players. Loose players win more small pots and therefore will be paying the full 10% in rake in most pots they win. Tight players win less pots but bigger pots and will usually cap out the rake, thus taking advantage of the cap and giving themselves a discount on the rake.
If you're getting raked badly, consider reducing your tips. I tip $1-2 a hand, no matter how big. If I have a monster night, I might tip $5-10 extra at the end of the night. Tipping $5 a hand to a dealer every $50 pot you win that didn't see the turn card is ludicrous. It takes money off the table and more importantly makes everyone else look cheap. If you're there to gamble and be entertained, tip away, but if you're there to make money, consider the tip as part of the rake, and don't be paying more rake than you need to or the dealer deserves.
The higher rake is due to the added risk of a SWAT team breaking down your door. It's a black market, and there is a black market tax. The profit margin on an average ounce of pot are upwards of 35%, a number unheard of in any legal industry. This is the exact same thing; an illegal product filling a demand in the market. There is significant risk to the entrepreneur and you, as customer, will pay to mitigate that risk.
The real crux of the issue is this: if you don't want to pay the higher rake, drive to Niagara.
Shane
That's a good point; haven't thought of this obvious point.