Cash Game Feedback/ General Observation
I have a general obversation regarding cash games (1/2 NLH) that I thought I would get some feedback on. What I find is that I typically lose big hands against sharks that are playing any two cards (56 suited, Q7 off, etc). If I raise 5-10x BB and there are more than two other players in the hand, they will call with any two cards because they are getting the proper pot odds (which is fair). I have read Angel Largay’s NLH cash game book, and I understand this is the recommended strategy to try and hit the flop hard so you can double up through your opponent. My question is, if everyone at the table is playing garbage trying to hit the flop, doesn’t that reduce the game more to a game of chance since everyone is playing cards that most would consider unplayable? I should note that I also make most of my money in a cash game playing garbage cards that happen to hit.
Comments
In the $1/2 sessions where I cashed out over $1,000, the biggest pots I won were with hands such as 2-3, 6-7 and 7-2 soooted. :-[
There's nothing wrong with making a big pre-flop raise. In Dan Negreanu's book, he recommends that beginners raise big pockets with a min 5X the big blind. But you won't be winning much with them. Most likely you will consistently win the blinds.
So it comes down to: Do you make a small raise and give people the right odds to call, trusting your post flop skill to lay down your big pocket pair if needed?
Try playing online for a while, try looking at your net winnings or losses when playing with pocket aces or pocket kings. You will need several thousand hands to get enough of these hands to get a large sample size. Look and see if you are losing money with these hands which will tell you that you are misplaying post flop. Then when you play 1-2 NL/ or 2/5 for a while, neutralize the variance by slightly overbetting pre-flop.
I think you are missing my point here; I am not talking about these premium starting hands. Online, I have made more money with suited connectors than big pocket pairs. These are the type of cards I am hoping to hit a flop against so I can double up. I am not trying to make 5BB, but rather double up against my opponents. Probably Daniel and Angel have different opinions on cash games. I have not read Daniel's book.
perhaps i'm wrong, but i always felt that looking for a double up in a cash game is not the goal one should have. obviously if you hit a premium hand and have the opportunity to double up that's great, but i personally don't play cash games with a double up in mind. maybe it's just my differing playing style but i prefer playing more smaller pots and occasionally taking down some bigger pots here and there. i'll play suited connectors and some more 'uncommon' hands every once in a while as well, but again i'm not necessarily looking to double up with them (unless the opportunity presents itself).
maybe it's because i feel most cash game players aren't willing to commit their whole stack even on a premium hand, or maybe it's my own personal preference of playing style, but i think that going into a cash game with the goal of trying to double up is a mistake that most new and/or too loose players tend to make.
2) Stop overplaying your pocket pairs
Someone once told me the biggest mistake poker players make is not knowing when to quit (during their cash game session). When I sit down at a $1/$2 game, my goal is to make $300 (if I start with $200 in chips) or play for a certain number of hours and then leave. I think a lot of players think of their cash game chips as game tokens at an amusement park. It is very hard for a player to leave the table with less chips than they started with. How many players start with $200 in chips and will leave the table with say $150 after playing 5 hours? Very rare. I would say the majority of players play until they go broke or they make a sizable profit. The players that go broke, get really sloppy when they get down to their last $50 in chips. My advice, have a pre-established goal in mind when you sit down and a time frame to earn that amount. Once you meet this objective, take your profit and leave or leave when the time runs out. There are exceptions of course if it is a really good table where you can make a lot more cash if you stick around.
As for playing pocket pairs, if I have a pocket pair, I will see most flops if it is not raised too much pre-flop, and depending on the size of the other stacks making the pre-flop raise. If I don't hit my trips, I am usually out of there. Is this overplaying the pocket pairs? Please explain.
Hate it. Make your goal to play for a certain number of hours, not 'win/lose $x'.
Your original post complained about ppl making two pair on you 'all the time'.. This tells me that you get married to your hands and aren't able to fold when it's painfully obvious you are beat.
I guess its realizing you are beat which may not be quite obvious. If I have an over pair and raised pre-flop, and the other player hit two pair as he was playing garbage, this is sometimes difficult to read. I guess the betting tells the true story. Not sure if it is 'painfully obvious'. There are definitely hands I remember that I wish I would have thrown away.
Then what is your point?? If you are in situations where you can't fold and you end up losing, you are just telling a bad beat story.
Your poor pockets got cracked a few times and now you think that you don't have an edge with them. Boo hooo.
My post really has nothing to do with playing pocket aces, or other high pairs. As noted earlier, I make most of my money when garage hands hit, vs these premium starting cards. I have no problem laying down AA/KK when the board dictates so. If I raise post-flop with an over pair, and I get a lot of resistance, I know I am beat and I will wait for a better opportunity to double through.
thanks tdotgrynder, mixing in the garbage is good advice and a lot of players overlook this concept.
I agree. A stop win point doesn't make much since if you feel you are better than your opponents UNLESS:
a) You are getting sloppy because you're up (similarly why a stop loss can be half decent if you're losing because so many people tilt when they're having a bad session).
or
b) (specifically in the case of NL) if you aren't properly adjusting your game based upon your deeper stack, this can become an issue. If that's the case you might be better off cashing out and rebuying back in for a lesser amount (might be impractical if the game has a list).
If I'm missing the point, then I'm not sure what you are asking.
I thought you were saying that if you make a small-mid size raise and get lots of callers when you hold a premium hand, then it makes poker a game of luck. I disagreed and said I thought that post flop strategy became more important and if you have difficulties playing Aces post-flop, then a safe bet would be to increase the amount of your pre-flop raise and give any callers poor implied odds against you.
The cards that have paid off the most for me online is the samll pair,which is in many ways similar to suited connectors. You call a raise and then you either "fit or fold" on the flop. You potentially double up.
Anyways, getting back to your "when should you quit question", most experts would argue that you should never quit when things are going well. I have never really followed this advice. I feel that when you play cash games, you are going to hit certain "pressure points" that will consist of a table that remains with the more skilled players and larger pots. This implies your odds of doubling up will be getting lower and lower.
In general, as a rule of thumb, check where you are after a few hours. If you are on a full table that consists of 3 or more "big stacks" such as yourself, it may be time to cash out. The skilled players are still sticking around and present a greater danger to your stack. If you find you dominate the table with chips, it's an excellent opportunity to add because of the psychology - you will be acting more aggressively and also people won't want to risk losing all their chips against a big stack.
It is not a game of chance when you have the opportunity to control so many factors:
- You decide the size of the pot you are going to play.
- You decide who you are gong to play against.
- You decide what position you are going to play from.
If four or five players are going to go see a flop every hand and you have a big starting hand you have a couple of choices pre-flop. Make a big raise that will define your hand but cut down on the implied odds that you give your opponents or make a smaller raise to limit your exposure in a multi-way pot.
Adjust your post-flop play accordingly.
Playing small suited connectors should be a part of your game plan in No-Limit, especially when you can play them from position. Players who play these cards against you are not playing crap.