$50 NL Shorthanded - Is this OK?
Here is a hand from last night and it is good example of how reads can effect your play.
It is not often that I will play a hand in this way. I will probably get this guys chips soon enough anyway so I am unsure if there is enough value in the way I played this hand or if it is just spewing chips. But I knew I was way ahead of his range here the whole way. I never took the lead at any point because I didn't want to bloat the pot.
Villain is a maniac. Over 150ish hands he has fired at almost every pot when in position. Loves the Pot bet button and will 3 barrel with air. Does not seem to shove his chips all-in.
Names have been changed to protect the ridonkulous.
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.comFlopTurnRiver.com (Format: Plain Text)
Button ($45.04)
Hero ($78.24)
BB ($51.36)
UTG (IMA Moron) ($28.98 )
Preflop: Hero is SB with 7h, 6d. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG (IMA Moron) calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero (poster) completes, BB checks.
Flop: ($1.50) 7s, 5h, Qs (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, IMA Moron bets $1.50, BB folds. Hero calls $1.50.
Turn: ($4.50) 5c (2 players)
Hero checks, IMA Moron bets $4.50, Hero calls $4.50.
River: ($13.50) 2h (2 players)
Hero checks, IMA Moron bets $13.50, Hero calls $13.50.
Final Pot: $40.50
It is not often that I will play a hand in this way. I will probably get this guys chips soon enough anyway so I am unsure if there is enough value in the way I played this hand or if it is just spewing chips. But I knew I was way ahead of his range here the whole way. I never took the lead at any point because I didn't want to bloat the pot.
Villain is a maniac. Over 150ish hands he has fired at almost every pot when in position. Loves the Pot bet button and will 3 barrel with air. Does not seem to shove his chips all-in.
Names have been changed to protect the ridonkulous.
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.comFlopTurnRiver.com (Format: Plain Text)
Button ($45.04)
Hero ($78.24)
BB ($51.36)
UTG (IMA Moron) ($28.98 )
Preflop: Hero is SB with 7h, 6d. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG (IMA Moron) calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero (poster) completes, BB checks.
Flop: ($1.50) 7s, 5h, Qs (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, IMA Moron bets $1.50, BB folds. Hero calls $1.50.
Turn: ($4.50) 5c (2 players)
Hero checks, IMA Moron bets $4.50, Hero calls $4.50.
River: ($13.50) 2h (2 players)
Hero checks, IMA Moron bets $13.50, Hero calls $13.50.
Final Pot: $40.50
Comments
buddy, you have 7 high preflop... and what do you mean ahead of his range? hands like Q3o aren't in his range here? he's a maniac, it's not impossible for him to flop top pair or make a raggy two pair. all this hand is is spewing, if he's a maniac you wait and find a better spot then calling down with middle pair. yet another one of these weak posts.
Hero knew that his pair of 7's are good on the flop, not preflop. Hero also posted before the hand.
If you could clarify this statement a bit I would appreciate it. I was happy to see lower cards on both the turn and the river because I felt he would play this hand exactly as he did with and A or K or possibly any other 2 random cards.
Wow! Please read what you posted again and think about it. This is not full ring, there are 4 players at the table. If you can't comprehend how this will change both you and your opponents ranges than please don't bother to repond.
Sorry that you feel my post is weak. But it is your response that is the kind of post that scares people away.
Okay... getting 5 to one but out of position of a moron... I guess since he's predictable you don't loose as much for being out of position.. Stack sizes are nice and big so you can justify the call...
. still.. I don't really like it.. I would fold here but I can understand the call for implied odds.
Yuck I hate 2nd pair. Since he's a maniac he might have a hand or he might not. I'd fold or raise here.
Did the moron make his hand?
At this point I haven't a clue.
He bet ... does that tell me any information?
Not a thing.. other than the fact that he didn't drop dead.
Is 2nd pair any good against the guy who will raise with air?
I have no way of knowing if I just call.
Does the moron back down if you raise him?
Is he a smart moron who bullies the table with raises and then runs if you play back at him.
Or will a raise just bloat the pot and increase your varriance?
If you don't fold....
At some point (maybe not this hand) you need to find out what will happen if you reraise him... say raise to $4 instead of calling here.
It's a careful balancing act between avoiding pot bloat and getting some information. It's one of the areas I need to work on my game.
Since moron raises with air you might be ahead. I really don't know. I would have raised the flop or folded the flop.
But I'd really get up from the table and ask myself ... "Why am I playing his game?"
Why are you?
Why not take a better hand to war????
When overcards appear on the board to your 7's, villians chance of making a pair that beats your 2nd pair increase. So in your hand, you got a bunch of cards that would make him a second best hand.
Therefore, if the overcards hit and the chance that he made a better pair increases, I like calling down more (because he so crazy).
In this case, you got cards under your 7's, it's possible if he made a pair of 5's or whatever, he'll call a river raise.
I follow that. I didn't really think about betting there because I figured he would fire at the pot again on the river. As well I thought the pot was plenty big enough for the hand I had anyway.
A value bet would be a pretty sick move to make in that spot. Cheers.
He may be either semi bluffing himself, or figuring you for a flush draw and trying to get you to lay down a hand with overcards that possibly beats his air. Again, you're going to need some type of read of how spazzy he is to fire 3 barrels here with air.
As alluded to by other posters I really don't know how +EV it is to call down 2nd pair here in a HU pot, it may be better to wait for something a little stronger (slow play a TPNK hand on a safe-ish board), and to clarify, by "slowplaying" a hand like pair of A, K or Q with a raggy kicker (since you're less vulnerable to overcards), I mean rope-a-dope, not planning some elaborate CR on the flop or turn to scare villian away from firing away with air.
Again, everybody seems to want to "raise to see where they're at", which IMO sounds ridiculous against this opponent bc he's possibly capable of rebluffing with air, or at least re-semibluffing. If your plan is to raise/fold to a reraise he may dummy you into submission. Of course, if he's capable of this, you may be simply better off waiting for a monster to stack him.
So ya, in summary, I have no idea, since I suck at no-limit. My "guess" against this specific player type (based on your read) is that your line IS +EV on that board. Whether it's better than playing the lower variance "wait for a monster to stack him" approach is another question...(which may be a factor since you're playing shorthanded as well). I guess at a full table I'd probably just sit back and wait, SH I'd be much more inclined to mix it up against this doofus.
To the person who suggested a river bet/raise... that would be terrible... i can never see a worse hand calling... you are turning your hand into a bluff.
Check-calling to see if your middle pair is good?
Calling from the small blind with 7/6o against a maniac is justifiable, but I'm certainly not looking for that flop/turn when I do.
I think it would be a mistake to look at whether or not you won THIS pot. You played poorly and maybe got lucky, but you've identified a hole in your game and should fix it.
I thought I was making it clear that this entire play is based on my read of the villain and is in no way standard. The board texture was also a huge factor.
As I try to open up my game and force myself to become better at reading hands I find myself in spots that put me to the test. The idea is that using my brain,trusting my reads, and learning to take different lines makes me a better player.
It is interesting that this thread received responses that were condescending
My guess is that posters who respond like this have done all the growing that they are ever going to do.
Is this a leak to do this against this player on this board? The more I think about it the closer I move towards no. It is another weapon in the arsenal that wasn't there yesterday. Isn't that why we all come here?
That seems like a bit of a reach. Why is this incredibly bad play? Because we're playing passive? We've identified villian as a super-aggressive bluffer. Middle pair headsup is a monster versus his range. How do we get value from this opponent? We give him rope to bluff of course. Raising to find out "where we're at" is bad because:
a) against a villian this aggressive, can we really fold to a reraise?
or
b) we shut him down from betting a very weak hand when we're a decent favourite.
This isn't an ABC LP fish that we get value from by simply value betting our mediocre to good hands (safely folding to a raise since they're so passive). Neither is this a thinking tight player that we can bluff either.
I agree.
Too many people focus on playing tight-aggressive without understanding WHY you would USUALLY want to play that way (against typical opponents).
NH (but buckle yourself in for the variance ride)
POT((D)|(M)|(Y))
You put him on any two cards: Which include a lot of qx, 5x, 7y (y= OR >6) combinations, also I suppose PP 88+(admittedly he'd prob. have raised them preflop) Why gamble a quarter of your stack here? Moreover you're calling off a quarter of your stack.
You're also saying that the texture of the board helped you to make the calls..that seems backwards to me. With a hand as weak as yours don't MOST of the cards coming put you in a worse situation than you are already in and aren't you technically throwing money in a pot that you have to fold..when the average 8 or better, *flush card*(can't remember the suit..club?) straight card etc. come? I'm not in love with the *roll the dice* ...whew! not an 8 or better/club, I'll continue to call off my money...*roll the dice*..whew, there goes some more.
Respectfully, this seems like less of a weapon in an arsenol than a game of russian roulette. You do not need to win every hand, I think this one should have never made showdown.
Think about the universe of cards that AREN'T those you mentioned that he can still take this boom-boom-boom line with.
The entire point of cadillac's play is that Villian overextends himself post-flop by being overaggressive. If you raise him on the flop, he'll fold (theoretically). Netting you a cool 50 cents. If you allow him to keep firing, he'll put 1/4 of his stack in.
Do you see why raising is dumb?
Your did not offended me. You disagree with me and I have no problem with that at all. I was soliciting input and of course there will be differing opinions. You basically said "I don't agree and this is why." Others had the tone of, "I don't agree and you're an idiot." I am sure you can see the difference between the two.
Personally I don't really care but there has been a lot of talk about the state of the forums and the tone of these other posts are a big part of the problem IMO.
I think he raises any PP with the button here. If he has a Qx sure I'm screwed but he makes this play with so many hands that if I fold here I'm seeing monsters under the bed. I have to expand what I will call with to adjust to his style. My thought is that my middle pair is 90% good here.
When the second 5 hits the turn I am now behind 5x and Qx but it makes it even less likely that he holds the 5 with 2 on the board.
The river blanks and 'voila' my 2nd pair is still good.
This is a cash game....Not a donkament. I am playing this hand in a vacuum against his range of hands.
I respectfully respect your opinion.
Well that seems to be what everyone wants to say in this thread.. "there's no reason to mix it up with the maniac.. you'll get better cards down the road"... blah blah blah.. How do you know you'll get better cards down the road? Why pass up EV plays in order to score the bigger less variance (and easier) money? What if you knew that maniac was leaving the game next hand and this is your last chance to get him to pay off?
I'm all for waiting for better spots when they make sense, but I think hero's got a pretty solid hand here (post flop).
I apologize if I sounded condescending. Properly playing bullies/maniacs a big leak my game - I tend to stay out of situations like this. Thanks for posting this This has been the most instructive hand/thread in a great while ....
Thank you for explaining, very interesting to see an opposing P.O.V.
Yes I am not sure I understand this cash game philosophy and BBC also seems to agree with.
I'll just throw this up there:
Should you treat each hand of a cash game in a vacuum? As in, should you be prepared to push every small edge in isolation of an overall goal to stack every player at the table?
Or should you treat each hand as part of a small battle of an overall goal to eventually stack everyone? Do you sometimes you give up a small edge in order to set someone up for a bigger loss in the future?
I'd like to hear some feedback.
Personally when I see a donk prepared to give up his chips, I am not so concerned how long it will take to get all his money. I know eventually he is giving it up. Does that mean sometimes he give it up to someone else? yes. Does that mean sometimes he takes his chips and leave before I can extract every dollar? yes.
However I am also patient enough to know that overall, soon another donk with more money will show up. Maybe not that table, maybe not that day, but eventually there is an unlimited supply of donks willing to give me their money.
Thoughts?
In a word yes.
Sure why not. But what do you consider small?
Consider this:
Lets say a donk is going to stack off his 100BB within a hundred hands everytime he sits down in a six handed game.
All five of the you at the table begin to play only premium hands against him mostly in postion and you value bet your way into his stack. This is the best way because you will get his money eventually and with very little risk.
We can say that over a large enough sample size you all end up with 20% of his roll. 100% split 5 ways evenly you get 20% each.
Look at the value you are giving up here. In being one dimensional against this opponent and using only this one simple tool you have in your toolbox you are severly limiting your profits.
What if the other 4 players all play the way described above and you play some draws effectively against his range, some weaker hands that are still ahead of his range, hands out of position where you allow him to bluff off his stack. What happens then? Maybe you get 60% of his stack and the others only get 10% each, that is a big chunk of +EV that you are giving up for taking the easy route.
You have a reference to +EV in your title so I'll do my best to explain it on those terms.
Do you think 2-1 is a gamble? or would you take those odds everytime? How about 3-1?
I ran this hand through pokerstove and found some interesting results.
I made his range any two cards except:
All pocket pairs
AK - AJ suited and offsuit
because I figure that he will raise those from the button.
and anything worse than 9-4 offsuit (maybe he would fold those)
This makes his range roughly 75% of the hands he could be dealt. Please don't debate this range because it is really not the point. I feel it is very accurate.
On this flop my equity versus his range is 63%. Almost 2-1. Not enough for a call?
On the turn my equity grows to 65% and on the river I have 72% equity against his range.
You probably would jump at a 3-1 proposition at any time so why does it scare you so much here?
I am learning a huge amount in this thread.
Thanks.
I was playing in a club 1/2NL
I'm heads up with a player who has his jacket on and wants to go home.
He's pushing all in every hand.
He has an initial stack of $118.
I'm just folding my blinds waiting for a better hand.
Rake at this club is 10% $5 max with $1 for a *yuck* jackpot.
This goes on for 6 hands I keep getting bottom 30% hands.
Villan is up to $127 .. I have him covered.
What range should I play?