Tournament vs. Cash Game Play
I don't want to be accused of a "bad beat" post (that was for you Canada Dave 
) but I have a scenario from a recent tournament. I am looking for a general discussion about the situation.
I was in the big blind and there is one other limper in the pot (SB folded). I have about 12 times the big blind. The flop comes six high with two clubs and a possible straight. I flop top pair. I bet out about 3/4 of the pot thinking that it is unlikely that the limper caught any part of the flop but has overcards and possible draws. The limper flat calls. The turn comes and fills in one of the possible straight cards. I assume that the card is a brick for the caller and he is still on a drawing hand and is possibly a scare card for him since I was in the big blind.
Here is my question. In a cash game, if I trust my read (and as it turns out it was correct) I would bet an amount that would take away the odds for the draw and live with the suck out if the person called and hit. However, in a tournament situation I have a dilemma. A large enough bet that takes away odds on the turn is going to cripple me if the other player calls and catches. Am I better to check here and fold if I see a scare card and pick a better spot? Let me say that I realize that I am out of position, but I could ask the same question if I am in position. As I said earlier, this is a more general discussion question.
) but I have a scenario from a recent tournament. I am looking for a general discussion about the situation.I was in the big blind and there is one other limper in the pot (SB folded). I have about 12 times the big blind. The flop comes six high with two clubs and a possible straight. I flop top pair. I bet out about 3/4 of the pot thinking that it is unlikely that the limper caught any part of the flop but has overcards and possible draws. The limper flat calls. The turn comes and fills in one of the possible straight cards. I assume that the card is a brick for the caller and he is still on a drawing hand and is possibly a scare card for him since I was in the big blind.
Here is my question. In a cash game, if I trust my read (and as it turns out it was correct) I would bet an amount that would take away the odds for the draw and live with the suck out if the person called and hit. However, in a tournament situation I have a dilemma. A large enough bet that takes away odds on the turn is going to cripple me if the other player calls and catches. Am I better to check here and fold if I see a scare card and pick a better spot? Let me say that I realize that I am out of position, but I could ask the same question if I am in position. As I said earlier, this is a more general discussion question.
Comments
Stack sizes are important here and so is the number of players still at the table. How about your read on villain as well.
I was really hoping to avoid discussing this particular situation in detail, but rather have a more general discussion. Perhaps the better question for you is: under what circumstances would you make the decision to bet and under what circumstances would you check?
However, to answer the question, the villian was a weak, passive player with a stack size slightly larger than mine. We were one player away from the final table (five players at the current table).
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Generic answer is this:
If you have an M of 8 you have two moves. Get in pre-flop or get it in on the flop.
Since I really don't have a whole lot of information here to go on such as the strength of your hand pre-flop it is difficult to give any real input.
If your hand was strong pre-flop I move All-in then before the flop. If it was like J-10 and you flopped top pair then I push the flop.
You are probably going to tell me he limped Aces or Kings.
AMIRITE?
I hate this 'pick a better spot' logic when it involves trying to shut out villians that are drawing thin. Dunno where it came from but it's just dumb. If you make a bet and have the best of it, you've done your job as a poker player.
You'll never be able to get yourself into 90% favourite situations enough to pass up 60/40's.
If I'm understanding the OP correctly:
I think it was 3.5BB in the pot preflop, slightly less than 3BB bet and called on the flop for a total of approx. 9-9.5BB pot and Sandy has about 8BB left...is there a bet besides all-in on the turn?
I couldn't agree more with this...
If this is the case then you have to jam here, there is no sense in check folding now, get it all in when you think you have the best hand and HOPE that villain calls with their flush draw and overcards because you are winning on the river about 70% of the time.
Oh and kristy i think bbc is agreeing with you.
wasn't sure..thought I'd ask.
For almost all players it's *never* better to play badly in order to pick a better spot.
If you have 10 bracelets then you might ... an I stress *might* pass up a 60/40 ....
We can talk later about chips changing values in the final table due to the payout structure but for the most part grab all the +EV you can get.
Idiots might tell you they pass on a 5 to 2, in order to get their opponents into a drawing dead ....
so you're saying for some players it's better to play badly? how the hell is this player who is playing bad going to find a better spot? i also do not think a player who has 10 bracelets is going to pass up a 20% edge because they are afraid of being knocked out of a tournament. if anything they are more likely to use the edge to their advantage because they have nothing to prove and they have the bankroll to handle the swings.
Agreed.
I suspect that the poster has less than 10 bracelets... :-) I was trying to stress that the poster should not give up +EV.
That comment was an obscure joke on Phil Helmuth who claims to be good enough to pass on getting all his chips in on a 60/40. I don't claim to be in a position to evaluate that claim and I certainly don't claim to know what the best play for a player with 10 bracelets is. I probably should have put implied smiles around that comment.
There are spots where it is good to pass even if you have a probably winning hands. (4 people left in a single table SNG that pays 50/30/20) But they are pretty rare and it was probably a mistake on my part to muddy the waters of this discussion with that point...