So how bad was my play here?
So here's a hand from a recent tourney I played. Don't worry it isn't a bad beat... more of a question about pot odds, and tournment play....
Here goes:
6 players left at the time in a 50 person tourney. Payouts go to top 6: 1000 for 1st, 500 for 2nd, 300 for 2rd, 200 for 4th, 150 for 5th, 100 for 6th.
Blinds are currently at 7,000/14,000
seat 1: has 95,000 chips
seat 2: has 130,000
seat 3: has 55,000 <- SB 7,000
seat 4: Hero - has 178,000 <- BB 14,000
seat 5: has about 75,000
seat 6: Villian - has 67,0000
Hero Dealt - 10d 8c
Preflop play
seat 5 folds.
seat 6 limps. <- suspicious as player is quite tight, and semi agressive preflop in the past; but these big blinds seem to have slowed players down a bit lately)
seat 1 folds
seat 2 folds
seat 3 (SB) limps.
seat 4 (Hero) checks with crap hand.
42,000 in pot now.
FLOP
10h 6s 2d
SB checks.
BB - Hero - Bets out 35,000. I was thinking that SB has crap, and seat 6 may have to high cards, and didn't feel like being pot commited until he saw the flop. SO I was hoping to pick it up here.
Seat 6 pushes all in for $53,000.
SB Folds.
So now the POT has $130,000 in it, and I have to call $18,000.
My thinking is I'm up against a overpair now; but after thinking about the pot odds, I reluctantly make the call. I show my 10-8, and the villian happily turns over hs Aces.
I didn't suck out, and I lost a lot of chips on this hand so it stings.
What I want to know.. where did I go wrong? Was it just unfortunate to be up against a big pair, or did I bet too much on the flop?
When he came over the top I thought at worst I was up against a-10, and most likely it was a premiuim pair that limped in and was hoping someone behind him would raise.
Did I make the right pot odds call? And do pot odds count when you have the chip lead, and can probably fold your way into top 3 or 4 money? What would your play be in this hand?
Here goes:
6 players left at the time in a 50 person tourney. Payouts go to top 6: 1000 for 1st, 500 for 2nd, 300 for 2rd, 200 for 4th, 150 for 5th, 100 for 6th.
Blinds are currently at 7,000/14,000
seat 1: has 95,000 chips
seat 2: has 130,000
seat 3: has 55,000 <- SB 7,000
seat 4: Hero - has 178,000 <- BB 14,000
seat 5: has about 75,000
seat 6: Villian - has 67,0000
Hero Dealt - 10d 8c
Preflop play
seat 5 folds.
seat 6 limps. <- suspicious as player is quite tight, and semi agressive preflop in the past; but these big blinds seem to have slowed players down a bit lately)
seat 1 folds
seat 2 folds
seat 3 (SB) limps.
seat 4 (Hero) checks with crap hand.
42,000 in pot now.
FLOP
10h 6s 2d
SB checks.
BB - Hero - Bets out 35,000. I was thinking that SB has crap, and seat 6 may have to high cards, and didn't feel like being pot commited until he saw the flop. SO I was hoping to pick it up here.
Seat 6 pushes all in for $53,000.
SB Folds.
So now the POT has $130,000 in it, and I have to call $18,000.
My thinking is I'm up against a overpair now; but after thinking about the pot odds, I reluctantly make the call. I show my 10-8, and the villian happily turns over hs Aces.
I didn't suck out, and I lost a lot of chips on this hand so it stings.
What I want to know.. where did I go wrong? Was it just unfortunate to be up against a big pair, or did I bet too much on the flop?
When he came over the top I thought at worst I was up against a-10, and most likely it was a premiuim pair that limped in and was hoping someone behind him would raise.
Did I make the right pot odds call? And do pot odds count when you have the chip lead, and can probably fold your way into top 3 or 4 money? What would your play be in this hand?
Comments
I probably play it like you did and hope next time I flop a set or something against buddy's AA.
I figured I made the right call; but wasn't sure about whether or not to bet out as the second to act on the flop(or how much to bet). I figured with a flop that ugly, I'd most likely take it down there.
I think you were in a very difficult situation. You recognized that you could be behind, but flopped top pair. I suspect no matter what happens all the money goes into the middle after that flop. It unfortunate for you that the villian didn't raise pre-flop - he set a trap and you got caught.
Unconnected, rainbow flop. I think you overbet the flop, there's no draws you need to worry about.
I see what you mean; but what I wanted was the pot right then. And I figured if someone missed that flop completely, even if they are starting to get low like villian did with his 53,000 left, that they may let it go. That how the table had been acting.
They way the table was playing was still quite conservative even though the blinds were getting high. The rest of the table was doing a lot of folding hoping other people would go out. SO with that bet I wanted to push out the players who missed. I think in that situation, my read on the player was that if he had a-k or a-q that he WOULD let go of his hand if he missed. But as soon as he raised I knew what he had.
With the table playing tight, I wanted to be aggressive to pick up as many pots as possible, I guess it just back fired in this case.
I probably would of checked on the flop, eager to see his hand by his betting pattern, but since you bet the pot, it was only right you called his all in raise. You had the cheap lead, and wanted to see your predictions. It sucked he had the aces, but his play was also very good, slowplaying until you tried to pick the pot up.
I respect the posters above but I disagree with the ones who said you did fine.
I'm not an expert and I don't mean to be rude or harsh but...
I don't like your betsize. You misplayed the hand.
Why bet so much?
Why not put them all in and make them make a decision for all their chips or bet 30-50% of the pot so you can get away from the hand.
Overbetting 35,000 lets them choose to put you all in with no chance to get away giving them a strategic option with no upside to you.
What hands will fold for 35,000 that won't fold for a 40-50% pot bet?
Unless you would not fold to a push after betting 16,000?
Pot is 42K
Hero bets 16K ->pot is 58K
villan pushes in 53K pot is 111K
Hero needs to call 37K ... getting about 3 to 1...
But you've got to be thinking... Why the hell did he limp... His M is a push or fold size...
or this line.
Pot is 42K
Hero pushes...
Villan now doesn't have the strategic option of pushing all in for 18K more on his good hands.
Thoughts?
Actually that play makes alot of sense; because based on my read, when he pushes I'm letting go of top pair in that case.
I raised the amount I did; becase I felt at least one of the two would call a smaller bet, and I didn't want anyone to have a chance at catching a card to complete their hands... I wanted the hand to end right then. But I see what you mean because I commited myself to the pot even if I was raised by the villian because he didn't have enough left to push me out.
Thanks for the opinion!
I don't mean to be rude but I disagree about pushing them out.
Did you think they would be more likely to call an all in then 35K?
Why did you want to push them out?
Don't you want them to make the mistake of calling with high cards, 2nd pair etc... in this low implied odds situation?
Isn't it better to offer them unattractive odds then push them out making them play properly?
I don't understand your though process here.
Your hand was not great and you got caught on what was once one of my biggest leaks. Catching shit cards in my big blind and thinking I actually now have a decent hand if a catch the flop. The hand still sucked and so did any kind of draw. A TA checks under the gun.....watch out. Smaller bet on turn. If he calls slow down and protect your stack. If he is all in...... your beat so fold. You had a chance to maybe win a pot out of BB. You can try with small bet on flop but dont't get married to that friggin hand becuase if that guy doesn't fold on even a 1/3 pot flop bet your probably hooped. With the 1/3 bet you learn where you are at, maybe take the pot, and lose alot less chips if he calls or moves in.
OK, that was actually my biggest question.. what is the right amount to bet. I think 1/3 pot bet would of ended up saving me a lot of money.
I said above to bet 30-50% of the pot but I'm starting to think 1/3 pot size is better than 40%
I'm not quite sure would like to get called in any event...
you know what . i think you played it ok but i do stick with 1/3 given everything. your stack size was big enough to make the "information bet".
once you made the first "mistake-too big a bet" ( been there done that) your following decisions were made for you. if you go 1/3 and fold against an all in then fine(no biggie). a little later you make the same bet 1/3 with a big hand and hopefully someone moves in on you(then you nail them- the perfectly set up slow play by that earlier hand). that brings to mind the way other players see you. so important. but good effort. where did you end up finishing?
Unfortunately, after this hand, it was the beginning of the end. 6th place was knocked out shortly after this hand, and I ended up going out in 5th, when my pocket 10s didn't hold up against the chip leader. Who called my preflop all in with A-Jsuited. I hit the 3rd ten on the flop; but he runner-runnered a flush. C'est la vie.
I agree with this post.
I would have done something completely different. You had the chip lead so I wouldn't have taken this battle. I choose my battles wisely. You say you put him on AQ or AK, but I don't think someone would limp with those hands. Am I wrong? I would immediately put him on JJ-AA as that's what I've noticed with all these sandbaggers online.
The check in the BB was fine but I wouldn't have lead out. I'd just check seeing as there are no draws except a gut shot straight, which I highly doubt he limped in with a suited connector, although I may be wrong, but more often than not he didn't. Take the possible free card so you can improve to maybe trips or 2 pair. When he bets, analyze how much he bets and go from there. If you don't improve, then just fold. Don't give him anymore chips as he sounds like he's a viable threat to you. You're the chip leader, just sit patiently. You're already almost guaranteed to be in the money.
I understand what you did though because of your read. You said you put him on AK or AQ so it's understandable what you did.
Check/fold to bet>
Bet 15000/fold to raise>
Betting 15000 or 20000 would leave him 38000 with a 57000 pot and 33000 with a 62000 pot. There isn't enough fold equity for him to try a bluff in that spot, unless he'sss a crazy super donkey because a lot of bets in this spot would look like you are committing his stack to the pot.
I think it was apparent to you that he was out of line by limping in late position. It's easy to say in retrospect but if his play was unusual enough for you to notice, its time to give him credit and ditch the hand. Bluff equity rises a bit too I think if you fold a pair after a raise.
This sequence of plays is highly read dependent i feel. That late in a tournament, you need to try get a good feel for when tp weak kicker is good and when it isn't. A lot easier said than done but with the button coming up and the size of your stack, I think you could have found a much much better spot than 8-10 big blind against limped short stack.