Poker with or without antes
Ok so I really didn't give up poker. I ended up playing on Sunday and got involved in a discussion about whether antes are good for the game. Someone told me that most pro prefer tournaments without antes. I asked for a source, but he couldn’t come up with one.
As someone who plays, as well as runs tournaments, I have always been pro antes as I feel that you really aren’t playing poker unless you have them. Without them, players can for the most part just wait for a good. I have always believed that if you are going to sit in the chair you need to put chips in every hand.
I would like to know your thoughts on this subject and if you know of the article where pro refers not to have antes, list it for me to read.
Prophet 22
As someone who plays, as well as runs tournaments, I have always been pro antes as I feel that you really aren’t playing poker unless you have them. Without them, players can for the most part just wait for a good. I have always believed that if you are going to sit in the chair you need to put chips in every hand.
I would like to know your thoughts on this subject and if you know of the article where pro refers not to have antes, list it for me to read.
Prophet 22
Comments
Also, since antes simply cause each round to cost more and if were are talking about two tournaments with identical structure, except one has antes (so same starting chips, blinds, levels, etc)... then all antes do is force looser play. People can't afford to sit around like rocks, waiting for big hands. But if you are talking about starting with more chips (or having longer levels), because you plan on using antes, or introducing them later, than it really only affects the tournament the first way I described.
The way I play, I prefer antes, as long as they don't force every player into playing toooooo loose. If I'm in a tournament where people have enough chips to think they can play tight and survive, than I'd love being able to continually build my stack by picking up the antes.
/g2
In a properly structured tourney with good blind levels, they work well to "loosen" up the play a bit and make blind steals a bit more worth while.
In an online MTT or S&G, I hate them as you soon find that with blinds and antes most players at the table become "short stacks".
Knowing when the antes kick in gives a player a chance to steal some early pots, and I can see where it loosens play. Forces a player who is getting short quickly to actually play mediocre hands more and play more aggressively. They also help in maintaining a decent time line going too. Without antes, games would be longer I would think.
Still, if I had a preference, it would be for no antes.
The 25 ante is unnecessary, doesn't encourage action that much..and tends to be a pain to collect. It's an insignificant sum relative to the ave. stack and I wonder if you actually lose hands played per level because of all them time spent saying "we're one short" and the chorus of "I anted" "I anted".
I'd vote strongly for what AJ suggested..having them start at a later level.
My feeling exactly. However there's a lot of people who play home games and NEVER use antes and don't understand them or their purpose. I played in the pirana grand championship where the blinds went from 200/400 to 500/1000 w 100 ante. This was completely un necessary.
Home games where everyone has to be reminded constantly I no likey.
OLD
25 25
25 50
50 100
100 200
100 200 / 25
150 300 / 25
200 400 / 50
250 500 / 50
300 600 / 75
400 800 / 75
500 1000 / 100
600 1200 / 200
NEW
25 25
25 50
50 100
100 200
150 300
200 400
300 600
400 800
500 1000
600 1200
600 1200 100 ante
600 1200 200 ante
etc.
This would actually force people to put in about the same amount of money per round, but would not introduce the antes until they started to become relavent. It would also allow for the greens to be taken out during the first break. If I have found anything, it is that the counting and changing of the greens slow down action as much as anything.
Al.
PS - For those of you that believe in Skill Level calculations (Buddy) - my suggestion would still be a skill level of 6. The 'blind off time' would be 3.68 hours compared to 3.63 for the old schedule, and my patience factor would be a little higher (13.56 vs 13.18)
1/2
2/4 -1
3/6 -2
4/8 - 3
5/10 - 3
10/20 - 5
10 PLAYERS.
SHIP IT!
I like antes for larger MTTs. It feels more like poker. You just need an ante-Nazi to manage the pot.
For a smaller games, there really is no need.
I think Antes are redundant in NLHE tournaments. There is already a tool for forcing action into the game, namely, the Blinds. That's why they are there. The increasing blinds will force action automatically. Furthermore, at an MTT, the table sizes will shrink and each player will have to pay blinds relatively faster. Antes are also a nuinsance to collect and slow down the game.
I think what Wet Brain was referring to was the times in when tables lose players but before it gets to the point where a table cllapses to fill the wholess. Often in a MTT with 9 players per table you can get down to 7 a few times a tournament while you wait for a table to be collapsed. At least my tables always seem to.
A slower blind structure with or without antes favors more skilled players and makes the tournament less of a bingoment.
That said I think that most people don't know how to play properly around high antes and don't adjust their game properly so there is an edge to be had there.
I like have the antes introduced at the 100/200 (25) level, because by the time we get to the point where we chip up, 400/800(100), the field has been lessened, which means there's less work for me to do. (Usually colouring up 2 tables v. 4)
In addition, since there less players, those that remain have more (25) chips and they're more willing to colour up to (500) chips, using (100) to make change, vs. if the blinds were lower and colour-ups happened sooner.
If you're at 100/200 and have to decide on going to 100/200(25) or 150/300, the differce is a CPR on a table of 8 with antes is 500, vs. the CPR of 450 with no antes.
Not that much of a difference and, if your table is at 6 or 7, virtually no difference.
From that point, it's all psychological. Having antes keeps the BB lower, longer, giving the feel of more play to big and medium stacks. To the short stacks, having to put something in the pot continuously mentally makes you think that you need to make a move sooner than later, which usually means (as mentioned above) looser play.
Having said that, there are times when I wouldn't consider ante. "Casual for-fun" games, where the action is already loose, or STT's with stacks that start around 50BBs.