Bellagio 8/16 Trip Report
Limit poker is dying my friends. I'm sure you haven't heard it here first, but in Vegas, you've got a ridiclous amount of 2-4 and 4-8 tables. Then there is a huge gap where there might be around 10 tables running on the entire strip of 6-12 or 8-16 or 9-18 and that's about it until you get back to the 15/30ish levels around Bellagio and Wynn.
Anyway, due to some ridiculously bad blackjack streaks I was in the hole a significant amount of money, and I didn't want to double the losses playing in a 15/30 game, so I stayed at 8/16 Wynn/Bellagio. I'm posting this as my assessment of the game in hopes that people who look for this limit in Vegas in the future will just move up.
So Friday Night, Bellagio , 8/16. Two tables running, 7 handed. I buyin for everything in my wallet, a cool $320. The table was pretty passive with single raises either folding to a blind defense, or a cold call near the button and a blind defender. 3 bets meant large pocket pairs and I dont think I ever saw a 3 bet post flop.
What I found interesting about the game was that if you raised preflop, you could pretty much get anyone to fold unless they made two pair. I had a ton of pots where I did nothing more than pound every street with nothing (after a PFR) to watch villains fold the river.
The game was full of players who seemed to have played a bit of poker before, so one of my strategies was to play my bluffs like bad players play big hands. I did a lot of flop calls and turn check-raises on scare cards and got the PFR to fold.
I was also open-raising a ton of hands due to this foldyness of the table. Qrag, suited connectors, suited 3 gaps whatever.
Lots of pots were either HU or 3 way so the key was to vary how you played your hands. If I had a legit holding, popped all streets and the guy folded, I'd expect him to call to the river next time so checking was more appropriate etc..
Anyway, as time went on, I started thinking about 8/16 and it's place in the Vegas universe. I realized that it's probably one of the worst limits to play ever. The Bellagio Gamb00lers are going to play 15/30+ and the Bellagio know nothings are going to play 4-8. It's a limit where people who are good enough to move up from 4-8 but are under rolled for 15/30, so I felt that the mix of the table was likely tougher than a 15/30 table.
Also, we had trouble keeping more than 5 players at the table and played shorthanded a lot for a reduced rake. In talking with the dealer, she mentioned how Bellagio doesn't really get all the tables going anymore. Too many tables in the city, it will be interesting to see how that plays out. It seems like all the major rooms have large ring game rooms AND large tournament rooms..
Summary: The games are pretty straight forward with a few blends of trickiness thrown in by certain player types. You can pretty much put a player in a box pretty early but sometimes you'll see some weird things from people you thought were good.
Anyway, due to some ridiculously bad blackjack streaks I was in the hole a significant amount of money, and I didn't want to double the losses playing in a 15/30 game, so I stayed at 8/16 Wynn/Bellagio. I'm posting this as my assessment of the game in hopes that people who look for this limit in Vegas in the future will just move up.
So Friday Night, Bellagio , 8/16. Two tables running, 7 handed. I buyin for everything in my wallet, a cool $320. The table was pretty passive with single raises either folding to a blind defense, or a cold call near the button and a blind defender. 3 bets meant large pocket pairs and I dont think I ever saw a 3 bet post flop.
What I found interesting about the game was that if you raised preflop, you could pretty much get anyone to fold unless they made two pair. I had a ton of pots where I did nothing more than pound every street with nothing (after a PFR) to watch villains fold the river.
The game was full of players who seemed to have played a bit of poker before, so one of my strategies was to play my bluffs like bad players play big hands. I did a lot of flop calls and turn check-raises on scare cards and got the PFR to fold.
I was also open-raising a ton of hands due to this foldyness of the table. Qrag, suited connectors, suited 3 gaps whatever.
Lots of pots were either HU or 3 way so the key was to vary how you played your hands. If I had a legit holding, popped all streets and the guy folded, I'd expect him to call to the river next time so checking was more appropriate etc..
Anyway, as time went on, I started thinking about 8/16 and it's place in the Vegas universe. I realized that it's probably one of the worst limits to play ever. The Bellagio Gamb00lers are going to play 15/30+ and the Bellagio know nothings are going to play 4-8. It's a limit where people who are good enough to move up from 4-8 but are under rolled for 15/30, so I felt that the mix of the table was likely tougher than a 15/30 table.
Also, we had trouble keeping more than 5 players at the table and played shorthanded a lot for a reduced rake. In talking with the dealer, she mentioned how Bellagio doesn't really get all the tables going anymore. Too many tables in the city, it will be interesting to see how that plays out. It seems like all the major rooms have large ring game rooms AND large tournament rooms..
Summary: The games are pretty straight forward with a few blends of trickiness thrown in by certain player types. You can pretty much put a player in a box pretty early but sometimes you'll see some weird things from people you thought were good.
Comments
Your description of the game sort of reminds me of my last 8-16 experience at Wynn. I wouldn't really call the game "tough", but it wasn't a LL donkfest either. Probably 1-2 legit fish, 2-3 semi-fish (little too loose, little too passive, but not completely retarded), maybe 3-4 rocks and maybe one other TAG. Because I'm not like the semi-fish cold-calling raises with 44, JTo, 98s, A6s, ATo, etc. I'm getting a reasonably tight image, so when someone takes a shot at my blind I have the option to either 3 bet and fire, or call and then check-raise the flop (regardless what hits). I don't know how many times the tight player insta-mucked.
Should be interesting to see if the weekend games are any better. Does the Bellagio use $2 chips for the $8-16 then? I remember that was a mess of chips in play at Wynn...
Well the thing was, previous to Bellagio, I played Wynn 8/16 and pretty much had the same experience.. I was reading the B&M forum on 2p2 and they had reached the same conclusion as me..
Right. Not to say that I still wasn't either the best or 2nd best at the table but the game played way harder than the limit would make you think.. Anyway Scoob, I'd say that you have more than enough game to take the 15/30 shot.
Bellagio uses 5's and 1's.. 3 white and a Red or 3 reds and a white.. Wynn is all 2 chips which made things way easier.
It sounds like you had a solid strategy based on the table dynamic and were raking a ton of small pots with marginal hands. So why do you consider this a game tougher than it should be? Game should be looser at this level?
What are the basics of proper bankroll management in limit?
FWIW - No need to move up here. They already respect your raises.
LOL, this is the problem! But I can see how a NL player might view things in reverse. NL is more a game of trapping, bluffing. Limit is more about pounding away for value when you have the best of it, knowing when you're getting good prices on draws, and knowing when to dump (generally early, not late in the hand when you're offered exceptional pot odds to call). NL players may hate the fact that they can't force anyone out with their raises and that "everyone has odds". Well gues what? The same theory works in reverse when it comes to implied odds in NL. Cold calling an EP raise in LP in NL with a hand like 76s or 33 with deep stacks would be a standard play if you figured the PFR on a very big pair. If you do the same thing routinely in LHE, you're throwing money away since you can't stack a player even when you do flop big. The games are different beasts.
I think std BR management would suggest a min of 300BB for whatever limit you're playing. Probably more if you're playing SH games (variance tends to increase).
I've only played 8/16 as the highest limit in my life, so I'm on theorizing at this point. Maybe aces or someone can confirm this for me..
When you are playing a limit game, with 2-3 to the flop, and you are exploiting your opponents based primarily on reads, previous history and tendencies and not on pot-odds, then I believe you have made a large step to the next level of poker. You don't have pot odds to cushion your falls and you are playing beyond the pieces of paper in your hand.
Once you leave that sit-and-wait state, I find it hard to believe that players playing 15/30 or 20/30 or even 30/60 are *THAT* much better or that the game is significantly different (maybe the 30/60 level it changes again as we go another level up in meta-game). So the point I was attempting to convey is that I was sitting in a game playing low stakes (8/16 vegas is still considered low) where I was using the same set of skills that could beat the 15/30 game. BUT, the 15/30 level is one where the fish re-enter so therefore, I think that 8/16 is tougher than 15/30.
I believe that I was playing the 'best' of the 4-8 pool of players. People who understood pre-flop hand value but are only comfortable with a hand when they are driving the pot and not calling bets. They probably needed to loosen up against me, but didnt seem to have the gear. Pieces of the various players at the table could be combined to create some very good holdem players, but as they stood as individuals, they were exploitable. They were all likely long term winners at 4-8 who wanted larger stakes, but didnt hold the bankroll for 30.
Now, if I compare 8/16 with what I hear about 15/30, I hear that there are more pure gamblers and that the game actually plays closer to 4-8 with limpers, multiway pots. Basically, you get that pot cushion back again which makes for easier decisions.
Blah, that was a ramble.
Yes. Vegas 'should' have the touristy gamblers in abundance, but the 8/16 level seems to be lacking in it.
Funny. I used to think alot about BR mgmt. Now I don't really care because I have a solid job. If I really am a losing term losing player, I can BR myself forever if I choose.
Never ever complained about that in my life :-)
thank you.
Good point. I'm a BR nazi when it comes to online. Probably for 2 reasons.
a) I'm paranoid about proving to myself that I'm "winning" at a level before jumping to the next since I'm aware how quickly it's possible to burn through a BR playing 200 hands an hour or so (4 table).
b) Related to a) I'm aware that if I have an edge, it's smaller, and game selection becomes more important, because in general, online games are tougher.
Live is a different beast though (in my mind) since.
a) It's rare that I play live.
b) It's mainly for entertainment.
c) I'm already convinced that I can beat whatever level I'm playing at.
Whether or not I have the bankroll "requirements" doesn't matter to me, so long as my potential losses aren't going to get in the way of bills, rent, etc (and for one night of poker, it generally isn't).
As such, I'm giving more thought to actually not being a pussy, and actually sitting in a 15-30 game. My only "worry" is that I'll play with scared money, but I doubt this will be an issue. I'll probably be initially nervous, but that usually goes away pretty quick once you peg the other players at the table as being much worse than yourself. Jumping limits is fun...
And as far as metagame, I think BBC is right. Knowing that you need to think (sometimes) on the second level to beat mediocre players as opposed to solely first level thinking to beat bad players is the difference. Once you can identify that you're often thinking on the second level (as opposed to the first), I think you can qualify the game as "tougher" (but certainly not unbeatable).
Online, I never really moved up past 3/6 online because of that.. and it probably cost me a lot of money back in the day when the games were cake-soft and I was too puss to move up.
Funny.. I felt the same way when I was playing 8/16 for the first time a few months ago.. Until I found myself 3 betting the turn with air and won :-).. You usually can't be too wrong (or too large a loser) playing a standard tight game without much flourish so thats what I tend to do when I move up. Very standard, very straightforward until I get a feel for it..
From what I've heard about Bford 10/20 and 20/40 and from empircal evidence of the worst player at the 5/10 table always being called to move up, I doubt that it's a tough game.
Live..NO. Not sure the two can be compared due to the large difference in skill level, but nm. Wasn't looking to flame out a good thread.
I'm pretty sure we're comparing 3-6 online vs. 15-30 live. And I'd fathom the two probably aren't that far off (I'm guessing a 15-30 game in Vegas "should" be easier to beat though). But maybe I'm an arrogant online noob...
I've only played the 10/20 at Brantford, but I'd say one of the bigger adjustments that is often applicable moving up is that you need to adjust to play in more modest sized pots 2-4 handed as opposed to the monster 5-8 handed LL pots. Blind steal/defend situations come up a little more often. You have options to try to isolate players, steal, bluff etc. It's not necessarily just a no foldem, showdown the nuts game. I like the players in the time charge games that refuse to chop and insist on playing the blinds out. I figure (from an online perspective) that this is the defacto standard, so I'm quite comfortable in those situations (either as the stealor or the stealee). I get amused when obvious LAGs that think they have the advantage in headsup situations, and then look mortified with the "How could you call me down with 2nd pair?" look when they clearly know you're the tightest player at the table. Some people love bluffing people out of pots. I guess I'm the type that just loves picking off those bluffs with marginal hands. Although I do sometimes think my bare A is good too often for my liking against non-completely retarded types.
ditto for this thread
Maybe, but you've amassed a 1,062 post count career on it.
How about you do something useful for a change and do something to make someone think about the game differently?
I would be throwing in a couple dimes worth of my 2 cents, but my sample size of limit games above 4/8 is only like 15 sessions (all live).
Keep it going Scoob & BBC, great discussion so far.
/g2
I have read your post's, heard about your excuses when you lose, do you really believe you would listen to anything I have to say? I doubt it.
I have posted in the past about hands played, only to be ripped by would be wantta be pro poker players.
You keep post to things you find relevant, I so will I. Just know this the poker worked doesn't rise and fall on the opinion of BBC Z
Prophet 22
Why do they not stick with the obvious $2-$5, $5-$10, $10-$20 etc?
I found that the vegas tables were very similar at certain times of the day. Noon-6pm it seemed that everybody knew each other at the table. Most of them were rocks who just exchanged chips back and forth with no big winners or losers. The 6pm-midnite games seemed to be packed with stronger players who were very aggressive. The midnite to 5am games were very juicy, many players were casino employees and drunk tourists. It was like playing sober against a bunch of your friends who are drunk. They could have cared less about losing, it was all about having a good time.
The number of physical chips in the pot. More chips == More action for the same pot sizes..
I think your table observations really depend on which casino you played at. Back when I played at the stardust, everyone knew everyone at the table and you'd have maybe 1 tourist.. But if you go the MGM, you'd see it's mostly tourists 24/7.
Turning Stone got rid of the 5/10 game since there was no action and replaced it with a 4/8 game using mostly white chips. The action there is crazy. The pots end up bigger just due to the chips in play.
It still depends on the clientelle. Rama's 1/2 NL game is a red chip game that can be crazy. You modify everything based on how the customers re act, what their bankrolls are etc.
I saw a 7 way 5 bet capped preflop pot at the Bellagio 15-30. These guys cold-call 3bets like champions.
This wasn't typical mind you, a more typical hand would be UTG LAG raises, tight player 3 bets, 2 players coldcall 3bets with any suited junk.
This game was in a word: AWESOME. Finished down $300 over 6-7 hrs.