Resolution of an actual scenario....
$5-$5 No Limit B&M Cash Game
Heads-up. The river card has been dealt.
Player 1 verbally declares "125" and tosses one green $25 chip forward while cutting down a stack of red chips to confirm he has the other $100.
Player 2 tosses one green $25 chip forward.
Player 1, seeing Player 2 toss in the green chip, properly tables his cards face-up in front of him.
Player 2, seeing Player 1's hand, declares "You're good!" and mucks his cards face down.
Player 1 then mucks his hand.
The dealer collects Player 2's one green chip into the pot and tells him "you owe $100 more."
Player 2 says "What?!? I thought the bet was only $25?"
Player 1 demands the extra $100. Player 2 refuses. The dealer had said nothing at all after dealing the river card until he told Player 2 "you owe $100 more."
In what way would you resolve this dispute? What written rule(s) cover the scenario? Please discuss.....
Heads-up. The river card has been dealt.
Player 1 verbally declares "125" and tosses one green $25 chip forward while cutting down a stack of red chips to confirm he has the other $100.
Player 2 tosses one green $25 chip forward.
Player 1, seeing Player 2 toss in the green chip, properly tables his cards face-up in front of him.
Player 2, seeing Player 1's hand, declares "You're good!" and mucks his cards face down.
Player 1 then mucks his hand.
The dealer collects Player 2's one green chip into the pot and tells him "you owe $100 more."
Player 2 says "What?!? I thought the bet was only $25?"
Player 1 demands the extra $100. Player 2 refuses. The dealer had said nothing at all after dealing the river card until he told Player 2 "you owe $100 more."
In what way would you resolve this dispute? What written rule(s) cover the scenario? Please discuss.....
Comments
Player 2's responsibility for finding out the bet size before calling.
IMO, Player 2 owes the extra $100.
Mark
P2 owes 100 to the pot.
A similar scenario occurred at Casino Niagara. I verbally announced $58, and put in $8 and went back to my stack to get the rest of the announced amount. A player behind said "call" and matched the $8, and then the dealer told him that it was $50 more. In this case the player demanded his $8 back, and pushed the issue to the point where the floor was called over. The ruling was that the $8 stayed in the pot (he should have paid attention), and his only options where to fold (with the $8 staying in the pot) or call the full amount. It was never even suggested that he be forced to call the entire $58.
I think this was the right ruling. Sometimes players simply can't hear a bet and don't have any intention of calling a large raise. I know casino rules are different, but Robert's Rules covers this:
In the OP's scenario, the calling player should have paid more attention which is why his $25 stays in the pot, but the first player should NOT have tabled his hand before making sure that the player actually called the full amount. I can see the argument for forcing a full call of the $125, but unless I've noticed the player "angle-shooting" in prior hands I'd give them the benefit of the doubt for an honest mistake.
All that said, calling but misunderstanding the raise amount is a fairly normal occurrence. I'd assume that it is covered under the posted rules for the casino, in which case whatever is posted should be followed. If it's not posted, why not (and is there any plan to add it now)?
In my opinion both players made a mistake, but the suggested resolutions only penalize player 2, without consideration to both the intent of player 2 or to the early tabling by player 1 (whether legitimate or an angle).
Plus being that both players mucked their cards the hand is over and player 1 has no more right to the hand.
If player one held on to his cards then he could claim that he is still owed the extra $100.
Throwing his hand into the muck is a sign that he is accepting the pot as it currently is.
Also, he could have argued (seeing how only 1 $25 chip went in initially) that when Player 1 said "125" it could be misinterpreted as "one $25 [chip]".
/g2
/g2
I remember playing at Fallsview and saying all in on the turn. The dealer didn't hear it and dealt the river. I told him I said all in and he said he didn't hear it.
This isn't the first time it happened, and I remember a dealer making a mistake that the other player folded. So he took my cards and started gathering the cards. The other player still had his cards and told the dealer that he was still in. A floorman was called and told me I couldn't get my cards back or money back because my cards were in the muck (which wasn't my fault). However he acknowledged the other person's deal he wanted to make where we halfed the pot. The floorman was saying, oh he's being nice to you by splitting the pot. I was infuriated because I knew I had him beat with 2 pair.
I have to admit though, that staff are much nicer now. Especially the women who work the night and morning shifts. There's this one fat hispanic pig though who is a complete ass.
I agree with the person who said the dealer should announce what's going on.
Floorman made the correct ruling here.
It was your fault for letting the dealer muck your hand.
Don't release your cards until the pot is pushed your way.
Hey James, hmm, maybe I shouldn't be giving the dealer too much credit. Thanks for the tip
One of the most important rules of poker.
/g2
verbally declared his bet of 125$.If he verbally called and only threw in the one green chip player 2 owes the pot 100$.
** It is important to note, however, that in Beanie's scenario the action was stopped. ** Completely stopped. The dealer and the other players were all aware of the pause in the action, and nothing else happened until a ruling was made. In the original hand listed by 13Cards, the action * continued *. Not only with one action, but with several. Therefore, Player 2 is responsible for the results of his actions. In this case, he clearly called, then was the first to forfeit his claim to the pot by mucking his hand. He is therefore responsible for the full amount of the call, whatever that may be.
It's the same in the following example: Full game, ten players. Seat #1 raises, but I can't see (or hear) the raise since I'm in seat #9 and my view is blocked by the dealer. If I say "call" out loud and everyone hears me say it, it's a call. *But*, applying the lessons stated above, two things can happen:
1) Player #10 waits for me to complete my action. I toss in my call of the original bet, not the raise. The dealer (or another player) then says "he raised by $X". If I complain and the dealer (ie. person in charge) agrees with me, then I don't have to call the raise; I have the option of folding.
2) Player #10 sees me reaching for my chips and acts upon his hand (he does NOT reraise-he calls or folds). Since this completes the action for that betting round, the dealer prepares to burn and deal the next card(s). I am now forced to call the raise, since substantial action has taken place.
In conclusion as a point of note, I think we all agree that it sucks as a rule, but if the dealer grabs our cards and mucks them, they are dead. End of story, period. Similarly, it is our responsibility to protect our money that's in front of us, the same way we are responsible for protecting our cards. If we say "call" (or put money into the pot indicating that we want to call), it's a call. If we misread our hands at showdown and muck them without turning them over first, it's a muck. End of story. It sucks, but it's true. Poker rewards the vigilant and punishes those who are negligent and don't pay attention. Wake up and pass the Red Bull! (No, wait, fall asleep and donk off your money. But before you do, call and let me know what table you're playing at!)
Cheers,
Matt
The scenario was presented EXACTLY as it happened on the table. There was no omissions; if I did not mention it, it did not happen.
Your comment on our floor supervisor shows your complete ignorance and immaturity. Personalities clash, our people do make mistakes, and situations do not always get resolved to everyones satisfaction, but to personally insult a stranger on a public forum is repugnant and cowardly. I expect you to respond in some idiotic way because that seems to be your nature from your previous posts, that will simply reinforce everything that I have written here. Personal insults and name calling. Grow up, get some class, and do not come here to Fallsview if this is how you will act.
Oh does that make you mad?:)
Please...spare me the lecture...