Check this hand out...

Choron

This is a hand from the $55 Freezeout(25k gaur) on stars from Saturday April 7, 2007:



PokerStars Game #9303405125: Tournament #46772293, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2007/04/07 - 17:20:38 (ET)
Table '46772293 26' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: CybrPunk (7855 in chips)
Seat 2: Ma-5 (5473 in chips)
Seat 3: AkuAku (6086 in chips)
Seat 4: Soul Sailor (4810 in chips)
Seat 5: Choron (10308 in chips)
Seat 7: vishnu24 (19071 in chips)
Seat 8: bocaorange (4470 in chips)
Seat 9: I_EAGLES_I (18378 in chips)
CybrPunk: posts the ante 50
Ma-5: posts the ante 50
AkuAku: posts the ante 50
Soul Sailor: posts the ante 50
Choron: posts the ante 50
vishnu24: posts the ante 50
bocaorange: posts the ante 50
I_EAGLES_I: posts the ante 50
bocaorange: posts small blind 300
I_EAGLES_I: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Choron [Kc 8c]
CybrPunk: folds
Ma-5: folds
AkuAku: folds
Soul Sailor: folds
Choron: raises 1200 to 1800
vishnu24: folds
bocaorange: folds
I_EAGLES_I: raises 3600 to 5400
Choron: raises 4858 to 10258 and is all-in
I_EAGLES_I: calls 4858
*** FLOP *** [As Jh 5h]
*** TURN *** [As Jh 5h] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [As Jh 5h Ts] [9s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
I_EAGLES_I: shows [8h 5s] (a pair of Fives)
Choron: shows [Kc 8c] (high card Ace)
I_EAGLES_I collected 21216 from pot
Choron said, "wtf"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 21216 | Rake 0
Board [As Jh 5h Ts 9s]
Seat 1: CybrPunk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Ma-5 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: AkuAku folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Soul Sailor folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Choron showed [Kc 8c] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 7: vishnu24 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: bocaorange (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: I_EAGLES_I (big blind) showed [8h 5s] and won (21216) with a pair of Fives


I ended up being the first to money, but this is just redonkulous if I do say so myself...Everyone feel free to express your opinions on this play...

BBC Z

You make a steal raise, he felt you were on a steal and re-raised you.

Then you decided that King high was good and pushed. He had 2:1 to call..

Whats the issue?

specialK

BBC Z wrote: »

You make a steal raise, he felt you were on a steal and re-raised you.

Then you decided that King high was good and pushed. He had 2:1 to call..

Whats the issue?

i just want to point out that you can't really give yourself odds on your own chips. besides with 8-5o you can't hope to be better than 60/40 underdog, i think that he should fold and save the 5K.

Choron

I love my play and hate the suckout...By the way, I neglected to mention that I was playing against this guy versus a couple of hours and we had a little history over those couple...That's one of the reasons why I figured he was weak...(yes weaker than my k-8 lol)

BBC Z

i just want to point out that you can't really give yourself odds on your own chips.

Of course you can. Once you put your chips in the pot, they aren't yours anymore. It may not be the right play as if both just pushed pre-flop, but the road to building the pot is just as important to "proper play" as the final result.

I love my play

The real question for OP: Are you happy with your play when he flips over ace-rag? Because he'll have that more often than complete garbage.

If yer prepared to dance with trash then I think you lose the right to complain about suckouts and you lose the right to breate villians.

Monteroy

I actually like your opponents play better preflop since he had fold equity to his reraise while you had none to yours (since he was getting over 4-1 pot odds to call an all in rereraise by you if you made it). Only hindsight allowed you to see you were in much better shape then expected, foresight shows a person shoving with a potentially easily dominated K8 when the only way an opponent folds is if he loses connection.

specialK

BBC Z wrote: »

Of course you can. Once you put your chips in the pot, they aren't yours anymore. It may not be the right play as if both just pushed pre-flop, but the road to building the pot is just as important to "proper play" as the final result.

i agree that the chips aren't yours anymore, this is the same kinda thing that was discussed a while ago, you can't bet to give yourself odds to call. for example say you're playing a 1-2NL and on the turn you have a flushdraw, there is $200 in the pot, your opponent has $160 infront, and you bet out $100 so that if your opponent pushes you're getting the odds to call. in this situation you truely aren't getting the right odds to call. i know betting is different than calling and so on and so forth. but when it comes down to it chips going in are chips going in, and you can't get odds on your own chips.

BBC Z

but when it comes down to it chips going in are chips going in, and you can't get odds on your own chips

As the pot grows and the stack behind shrinks, you commit yourself to the hand more and more. You also forget that you gain more information the more bets that go into the pot.

So lets say you bump it to $100 and it's when your opponent re-raises you all-in that you realise you are a 4:1 dog. Well you've given yourself the odds to call because of the situation you've put yourself in. Your opponent gave you more information to act upon, so that doesn't invalidate the play you make previously. It's a situation where you would have LIKED to know that you were a 4:1 dog going in but couldnt get that info until villain pushed.

I get the point you are making, but the solution is to control pot size BEFORE you make the play. Once you have pot odds for whatever situation you are in, you go. Regardless of where the chips originally came from.

specialK

ok, i get where you're coming from, we're sorta saying the same things... either way, in a tournament situation like this i think that even though the pot is offereing you the odds to call you SHOULD fold your 85o (which is likely a 65/35 dog or worse) keep the 5K chips and still have a good stack.

Monteroy

Unless there are some very specific tournament payout reasons I cannot see how folding even 5 8 with under 5000 chips for what will be a pot of over 21,000 would be the correct play.

The villian's reraise was essentially an all in bet which definitly had fold equity to it. The fact that OP chose to go all in with K 8 does not change this (unless there was something to the game conditions that we do not know).

Most tournaments have a fairly flat payout structure until you hit the final table which makes the final call even more forced.

Yes, he sort of trapped himself with the raise and now you have to call due to odds situation, but the chances of an opponent folding was a big part of that play. The Hero in this case made his reraise with K 8 in a situation where an opponent folding has to be almost zero. This is the main reason I like the villian's play more despite what the hands were or the eventual outcome.

Choron

What do you mean specific payouts monteroy? 1st took home something like 13 large US which is decent for sure... Now I might have misunderstood you but he could have folded and still been roughly at 13k...And to the doubters, I obviously wouldn't make this play unless I thought I was stronger than my oponnent...All the hands and animosity we had in those hands over the course of the tournament added up to some chemistry and as such I figured he was making a strong play with a weaker hand than mine...

BBC Z

All the hands and animosity we had in those hands over the course of the tournament added up to some chemistry and as such I figured he was making a strong play with a weaker hand than mine...

Exactly. You justified your play by always putting your opponent on a worse hand. That's what all the bad players that don't know they're bad do.

Choron

BBC Z wrote: »

Exactly. You justified your play by always putting your opponent on a worse hand. That's what all the bad players that don't know they're bad do.

lol..........................

DrTyore

Choron wrote: »

lol, I could outplay you any day of the week...

Ooh! TWO threads like this? Here we go again!

Huzzah!

g2

What are you so worried about Mark? Saying "I could outplay you any day of the week" isn't a strong statement at all.

I could outplay Daniel Negreanu any day of the week.

Does that mean it is likely I would do so, or that I even think it is likely? No.

/g2

DrTyore

Well why don't you just be an moron and jump down my throat for a little mistake g2?

Mark

g2

DrTyore wrote: »

an moron

Too easy.

/g2

Monteroy

I meant that folding might be an option if it was say a sattelite where 20 make it and 25 were left (though his reraise would be utterly horrid there even though I have seen this and worse in sattelites).

If it is a WSOP tourney where winner gets a seat and everyone else gets a smile and handshake then folding after his initial reraise is flat out stupid.

If it is a standard payout structure then again his folding after reraising is likely not ideal, since as you mention the real prize is the big payoff at the main table as opposed to limping into the money to win back your $50 plus maybe 10 more. Reraising then folding makes winning the 10k+ much, much harder though I suppose it slighly increases his chance to make 10 bucks or so.

I realize you think you played flawlessly but you really are using hindisght to justify that belief. You essentially called an all in preflop after investing only 1800 of your 11,000 ish chips since he really had zero fold equity and was likely shoving no matter the flop and calling if you shoved (which he did).

His slight error was that if he is going to do a reseteal he should just shove all-in as that will eliminate any incorrect belief you might have that he can fold when really he cannot in the original case. His minor error there did bite him a bit back ironically based on your error of not being able to identify a clearly no fold-equity situation.


The fact that he had a bad hand and sucked you out really does not play as much into the analysis of the hand as you might think. The former just means he should either initially fold (obviously a reasonable move) or shove (also reasonable depending on his opinion of you and your motives). While he did not technically do either, his raise was large enough to be pretty much a shove. The latter point (ie: result of the hand) does not matter at all with regards to who played the hand better. Many weak players rely on single hand results in hindsight as proof of something that it does not prove.

Think of it in a simpler example. First hand of a sit and go UTG shoves. You call the all-in preflop with 8 2 off and crush his dominated 7 2 off hand. You were dominating preflop and won the hand. Did you actually play the hand better?

Only thing you proved in your real example is that you were willing to go all in preflop with K 8 instead of folding. If you believe that makes you a great player that is fine and is certainly your right. Others may disagree.

All the best.

Choron

I never said I was a great player...

CanadaDave

Choron wrote: »

I never said I was a great player...

True but the OP was clearly to make the villian out to be a complete idiot because of the cards he had. Therefore if you think he was an idiot, you believe yourself to be less of one. I guess he's taking your "i'm the lessor of two idiots" to mean you feel you are a great player.

On another note, I think if you explain what exactly was the history between you and this player, it might shed a little light on both of your plays. At least for me it would.