Looking for feedback on a home game tournament format
Hello Folks:
I'm new here, and looking to get some feedback on a change I'm planning to my semi-regular home poker games. I'm looking to change the format to better suite 16 players, from the average of 8-10 that we usually get now.
Please feel free to chime in with your comments and suggestions.
Some desired parameters for our games (both cases):
- length: 4-5 hours.
- average expected cost per player: $10-$25
- no limit Texas Hold'em
So, here's the format we've used to date (successfully) :
- To date, we've used this format for 7 to 10 players, one table.
- $5 buy ins, with $5 re-buys for the first two hours (4 rounds). Both get you $500 in chips.
- One optional top-up re-buy before fifth round (end of open rebuy).
- 1/2 hour rounds, with increasing blinds (general doubling): 5/10, 10/20, 20/40, 30/60 (optional rebuy/top-up, no more rebuys), 50/100, 100/200, 150/300, 300/600, 500/1000. No antes.
- Rebuy (in first 4 rounds) allowed when you hit $100 or less (i.e. don't have to bust out). If you have < $100 in the optional topup round, you can actually buy twice (i.e. rebuy for $1000, then the optional $1000 topup, plus your left over stack < $100).
- We find that the tournaments take from 4 to 5.5 hours in this format, ending within the 1/2 hour of the last 500/1000 level generally. Since we play mid-week a lot, starting at 7:30pm, this means the game ends by 12:30am or so.
I'd like to modify this format to better suite 16 players, while preserving a an expected length of 5 hour game. Here are my thoughts (comments appreciated!):
- Two tables of 8.
- Same $5 buy-ins, with $5 rebuys in the first 4 rounds. $5 gets you $1000 in chips though.
- 20 minute rounds.
- SB/BB/ante: 10/20/0, 15/30/0, 20/40/0, 25/50/0 (optional top-up, no more rebuys, color out reds), 50/100/0, 75/150/25, 100/200/25, 150/300/50 (color out greens), 250/500/50, 500/1000/100, 750/1500/100, 1000/2000/200, 1500/3000/200.
- Move players to balance tables as required.
- Rebuy (in first 4 rounds) allowed when you hit $100 or less (i.e. don't have to bust out).
My thinking is that decreasing to 20 min. rounds will make up for the extra expected 'depth' with 16 players. Antes will help force small stacks in the late stage to make their moves and get it to heads up faster. Our generous rebuy policy ($100 or less) allows for players to spend a lot, or spend a little... up to them what the tournament costs them.
Dan Pronovost
dan@deepnettech.com
I'm new here, and looking to get some feedback on a change I'm planning to my semi-regular home poker games. I'm looking to change the format to better suite 16 players, from the average of 8-10 that we usually get now.
Please feel free to chime in with your comments and suggestions.
Some desired parameters for our games (both cases):
- length: 4-5 hours.
- average expected cost per player: $10-$25
- no limit Texas Hold'em
So, here's the format we've used to date (successfully) :
- To date, we've used this format for 7 to 10 players, one table.
- $5 buy ins, with $5 re-buys for the first two hours (4 rounds). Both get you $500 in chips.
- One optional top-up re-buy before fifth round (end of open rebuy).
- 1/2 hour rounds, with increasing blinds (general doubling): 5/10, 10/20, 20/40, 30/60 (optional rebuy/top-up, no more rebuys), 50/100, 100/200, 150/300, 300/600, 500/1000. No antes.
- Rebuy (in first 4 rounds) allowed when you hit $100 or less (i.e. don't have to bust out). If you have < $100 in the optional topup round, you can actually buy twice (i.e. rebuy for $1000, then the optional $1000 topup, plus your left over stack < $100).
- We find that the tournaments take from 4 to 5.5 hours in this format, ending within the 1/2 hour of the last 500/1000 level generally. Since we play mid-week a lot, starting at 7:30pm, this means the game ends by 12:30am or so.
I'd like to modify this format to better suite 16 players, while preserving a an expected length of 5 hour game. Here are my thoughts (comments appreciated!):
- Two tables of 8.
- Same $5 buy-ins, with $5 rebuys in the first 4 rounds. $5 gets you $1000 in chips though.
- 20 minute rounds.
- SB/BB/ante: 10/20/0, 15/30/0, 20/40/0, 25/50/0 (optional top-up, no more rebuys, color out reds), 50/100/0, 75/150/25, 100/200/25, 150/300/50 (color out greens), 250/500/50, 500/1000/100, 750/1500/100, 1000/2000/200, 1500/3000/200.
- Move players to balance tables as required.
- Rebuy (in first 4 rounds) allowed when you hit $100 or less (i.e. don't have to bust out).
My thinking is that decreasing to 20 min. rounds will make up for the extra expected 'depth' with 16 players. Antes will help force small stacks in the late stage to make their moves and get it to heads up faster. Our generous rebuy policy ($100 or less) allows for players to spend a lot, or spend a little... up to them what the tournament costs them.
Dan Pronovost
dan@deepnettech.com
Comments
I like the raise from 500 to 1000 chips, allows for alot more play and action, especially at the lower blinds.
I like the 30 min blinds too, but I find a five hour game midweek is too tiring for the average working player. Making it 20min and maintaining the rebuy will keep it to more than 4 hrs I figure.
Antes are NOT required for anything less than 30 players or more, regardless of blind level. Get rid of them completely. Your players will thank you in the long run. Antes are payment to the devil anyway. Besides, if your low stacks are going to be crippled by antes, they should have made their move long before.
Your blinds are very easy earlier, but then they make a HUGE jump near the end. Going from 250/500 to 500/1000 will effectively cripple your short and med stacks, and make it easier for your bigger stacks to capitalize on this drastic and sudden disadvantage. Think about it...you're med stack at 250/500, suddenly your stack is worth HALF as much every orbit. Brutal jump. I would suggest adding a 350/700 blind level to make it abit more competitive.
If all else fails...repeat ZITHAL four times outloud, and the Structure God will assist you!
(and I did say that chant out loud!)
Thanks STR82ACE for the input... I agree about the blinds. I don't think they will accomplish what I want (to speed things along). The overall reaction to them is always negative from players.
The 350/700 jump is a good idea too... I've had players cring at the double-jump from from 150 to 300 from level 7 to 8 in my prior format. Your suggestion improves this in the 16 player variant, at only maybe a small cost in time length.
More input folks! Bring 'em on!
Dan Pronovost
dan@deepnettech.com
It's Friday, and half my team is off today so I put a little time into this. Enjoy.
/g2
I think I'll go with your third column, to provide the greatest chance of finishing before 1 am.
Zithal who? haha
/g2
I think you find that the additional players won't add much time to the tournament. For example, if the rebuy/add-on amount is $1,000 chips, let's look at your last two rounds 12th: 1000/2000, 13th: 1500/3000.
With $5 rebuys, I imagine play is lose and based on your expected cost per player, I'm going to assume the average player takes 1 buy-in, and 3 re-buys for $4000 chips per player.
This means that in the 12th round, each additional player is contributing 2 BB's to the game, while in the 13th round, each player is contributing 1.3 BB's.
If you're moving from 8 to 16 players, The number of BB's in the tournamnet in the 12th round increases from 16BB to 32BB, while the 13th round increases from ~10.5BB to 21BB.
Often you find a tournament ends when the total # of BB's in the game is somewhere between 20-30. I guess, using this format that an 8 player game would complete around round 11, while a 16 player game would end around level 12. Although you've doubled the number of players, the tournament length has only grown by one level.
I think the only think you really want to do, then is create a smooth schedule where the 12th level (4 hour mark) is 1000-2000. (In fact, I'd be tempted to push the 1000/2000 level to the 13th level. Perhaps something like this...
Old: New
10/20 : 10/20
15/30 : 15/30
20/40 : 20/40
25/50 : 30/60 (I like your original jump better here) **colour out (5) chips
50/100/0 : 50/100
75/150/25 : 75/150
100/200/25 : 100/200
150/300/50 : 150/300 **colour out (25)
250/500/50 : 200/400
500/1000/100 : 300/600
750/1500/100 : 500/1000
1000/2000/200 : 700/1400 (this is a wierd level, but oh well)
1500/3000/200 : 1000/2000 * expected end of tournament (put a 2k-4k level after this one to create a widow maker level)
Best advice is to pick something, give it a go, then adjust based on how the tournament went.
/g2
1200 chips to start
10/20
20/40
40/80
50/100
100/200
200/400
400/800
800/1600
$20 buy-in, $20 rebuy anytime
Dan Pronovost
dan@deepnettech.com
For my calcs, I usually just figure out the blinds I want to use so the tourney ends on time. Then calculate the expected # ppl backwards. Those #s are then used to calc the cost/round. Then I check that the cost/round is going up fairly consistently from level to level. Way more entertaining than doing actual work while at work
See the attachment I emailed your @pokerforum address a few days ago. It's got the cost/round, M, etc, columns.
/g2
Yes. Me too.
/g2
that's what I have been playing with. I made my own spreadsheet - excel - which sucks rocks too. ???