Two situations to discuss
Two situations for discussion:
Number 1
You are the button. Blinds are $500 and $1000. You are average stacked and have $10,000. It is folded to you and you find A-Qs. You know nothing about either blind. The small blind has $5000 and the Big Blind has $25,000. What do you do?
Number 2
You are the big blind. Blinds are $500 and $1000. You are average stacked and you have $9,000 left after posting. The button (a skilled player who plays and raises A LOT of hands) has raised to $4000 and the small blind has folded. You have A-K. What do you do?
Number 1
You are the button. Blinds are $500 and $1000. You are average stacked and have $10,000. It is folded to you and you find A-Qs. You know nothing about either blind. The small blind has $5000 and the Big Blind has $25,000. What do you do?
Number 2
You are the big blind. Blinds are $500 and $1000. You are average stacked and you have $9,000 left after posting. The button (a skilled player who plays and raises A LOT of hands) has raised to $4000 and the small blind has folded. You have A-K. What do you do?
Comments
I have a hunch that you like limping in here.
I would make it 3,000 to go. I'll probably let it go if the BB moves in on me, and call the SB if he/she pushes the rest in.
You've got a little bit of the "be afraid of the short stack" effect going on here. I'm probably not going to raise (and I would fold) if I had a hand considerably weaker than AQs in case the SB is in "bonsaiiiiiiiiiii" mode.
Number 2:
I am certainly playing this hand for all my chips against a loose raiser. Simply moving all-in pre-flop seems reasonable.
Instead of that however, I would call with the intention of moving all-in on any flop. I think this is a cute and unique use of position here (the right of first bluff), and will generate more fold EV than moving all-in pre-flop, since the raiser may be more inclined to feel pot-committed (and rightly so) with all 5 cards to come.
I think it's a mistake to call with the intention of seeing what the flop looks like.
ScottyZ
I do not like moving in for situation two.
Number 2: I'd call, and move my last 6K in on any flop. As Scotty pointed out, 'the right of first bluff' is valuable when you still have 6K to bluff with. Also, I don't see anything wrong with moving in pre-flop (particularly if you can get him to fold, to discourage further blind steal attempts if that's what it is). I still prefer calling and moving in on any flop, though.
Regards,
all_aces
Situation 2: I see only two real options. Push all-in or fold. The problem here is that 4000 is not a tiny raise in a situation where the average stack is 9000. I would say that with your all-in your guaranteed a call, with any pp. Folding is an option if you decide a possible coinflip is not something you want when you have an average chip stack.
sit 1: all-in
sit 2: all-in (not factoring in any payout considerations ie. the bubble etc)
2) I flat call, after the flop I move in.
Kent Mc.
Number 2
i would go all in wit A-K chances are the raiser doesn't have A-A or K-K either way i still have 50/50 against him ...
Traditional wisdom holds that if you have 10x the big blind (or less) you should move in because (1) If you are re-raises you are pot committed and will be forced to call; and (2) the all-in move will put maximum pressure on your opponents. Plus, getting all-in gets you to the river with no more choices.
I used to make this a firm rule. Then, I started to feel uncomfortable because I felt that I was only getting called when I was in DEEP trouble. So, what happens if you raise less that 10x the BB? Generally, my rule in no-limit hold’em is "raise just enough to get the job done." My experience tells me that MOST players will fold for 3x the BB almost as frequently as they will 10x the BB. Most players have a simple view: "Against a raise I will play hands X,Y, and Z." The size of the raise does not matter. So, my rule has become move in with 6x the BB. At or below 6x the big blind "desperation" sets in and the others KNOW that. You get called more often so you might as well adopt a move in approach. Otherwise, I tend to raise 2.5x the BB and play the hand as it develops. I note that Greg Raymer’s experience is that 2.7x the BB is about right. I am considering trusting his judgement and moving my "standard raise" up slightly.
This is an interesting situation which A LOT of people play poorly. Compare moving in pre-flop with calling blind and moving in NO MATTER WHAT hits the flop.
If you move in you will be called. The skilled player is offered a $15,000 chip pot for a call of $6,000. He calls almost for sure at those odds. But, if you call blind and then fire $5,000 at the flop HE MIGHT FOLD. If he doesn’t, well, you are in no different a situation than you would have been if you had fired pre-flop. Namely, you are all-in and get to see all five cards. Same BAD results, but it adds fold equity to the hand.
while i think i get the general idea, what exactly do you define or mean by "fold equity"
Do you mean raising to or by these amounts? (I believe the usual convention when you say "Raise X" is that you're raising *to* X, but I just want to make sure.)
For Number 1:
I noticed that you didn't mention anything about the SB's stack size being exactly 5,000. I know it's tangential to your main point about 10xBB not necessarily being an automatic all-in, but do you think this is in any way important information?
I thought it was neat that raising it to 3,000 would commit the SB to the pot if he decided to play, but maybe still leave you enough chips in case you want to get away from the hand if either the BB re-raises, or you get a bad flop after the BB merely calls you pre-flop.
This brings up an additional question arising from Hand Number 1:
What do you do if you raise to something like 2,500-3,500, the SB folds and the BB re-raises all-in pre-flop? Still assume the BB is an unknown player, and you pick up no kind of useful read on this player at all.
And more generally, do your hole cards matter in this situation?
That is to say, how much do you believe in point (1) of the "traditional wisdom"?
ScottyZ
This was my question as well. In hand #2, we seem to agree that just calling, and then moving in on any flop is the best play. In hand #1, however, would you consider folding to an all-in re-raise from the BB? And if not, wouldn't it make more sense to just move all-in yourself in the first place to add fold equity?
I think that if the hand was slightly weaker... ie: AT... then I'd agree with your play of raise 2.5 or so and then see what happens. (This would be very much like a situation I just posted in 'Another tourney situation') With a hand as strong as AQs, however, I don't see how you could fold to a re-raise.
It is conceivable that you would consider folding to the re-raise, because that would still leave you with 6XBB, which, by the way, I love as "the new 10XBB". It's like the new black. Just curious as to which way you'd be inclined to go in the face of an all-in re-raise from the BB after already raising 2.5 to 2.7 X the BB.
Regards,
all_aces
Not necessarily. The BB may just call pre-flop instead of re-raising.
Even if (and I don't necessarily think this needs to be the case) you feel like you *are* pot-committed facing a pre-flop re-raise, raising is not the only thing the BB might do.
ScottyZ
I didn't pay it much mind, but you might well want to make it $5000 even since you take away the "call and then fire" play from the SB by moving him in pre-flop. You will not have to face a tough post flop decision from him.
I almost certainly call. You are getting enough odds, and, he might even be attempting an ill fated re-steal.
Yes. With only 10x the BB I am not real keen to be in there mucking around with any two. The "high variance" package is currently in a box under the bed.
I think it is correct for the most part. You will be getting the odds to call and you probably should -- with any two if that's whay you find yourself with. The advantage to not jamming is that hands that will call you when you jam may also STILL only call 2.5BB. You give yourself another "round of decisions" which you think you are better at than your average bear.
Call. Almost no question. Unless i have a very tight handle on the BB or I am seeing a Huge Adrenalin Reaction (HAR) when he peeks at his hole cards (my new favourite, non-original term).
Regards,
all_aces
Enlightment is a beautiful thing - thanks for the posts!
nice bump...good strat thread ftw
Thank you Jon for bringing this thread to my attention.
wb, after a three year hiatus... No more poker for you?
Omg great laugh before bed. Damn the poker has changed so much
Fun he droped in!
and sit 1 a bit more diffficult limping works only if the BB picks up a strong hand you can escape, the raise to 2500 seems much smoother, your committing SB and can actually escape your hand if BB shows huge strength which sucks but he would put some thought into something like suited connectors, ace rag, hopefully a small pair that doesnt make a set....the limp opens you up for too much robbing by the blinds