AA vs. K5 Showdown

alex_844

Which hand is better? I'm trying to figure that out, K5 seems to be a big winner tonight. Two separate tables, I get AA on one... lose to fives full of kings. Two hands later on the other table I get AA... lose to fives full of kings!!!!! arrrrgh!!!!!!

I preflop raise both times, a few callers... I can't say I really expected K5... twice :banghead: and not within 5 minutes!!!

***** Hand History for Game 894689060 *****
0.50/1 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Mon Aug 30 01:23:47 EDT 2004
Main Pot: $16.25 | Rake: $0.75
Board: [ Kd 5c 5s Th 7c ]
alex844 balance $22.75, lost $6 [ Ad Ah ] [ two pairs, aces and fives -- Ad,Ah,Kd,5c,5s ]
PGAACES balance $17.75, bet $6, collected $16.25, net +$10.25 [ 5h Kc ] [ a full house, Fives full of kings -- Kc,Kd,5h,5c,5s ]

***** Hand History for Game 894694545 *****
0.50/1 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Mon Aug 30 01:25:34 EDT 2004
Main Pot: $16 | Rake: $0.75
Board: [ Ks 8h 5s 5h Qd ]
alex844 balance $30, lost $6.50 [ As Ac ] [ two pairs, aces and fives -- As,Ac,Ks,5s,5h ]
wellz10 balance $83.99, bet $6.50, collected $16, net +$9.50 [ Kh 5c ] [ a full house, Fives full of kings -- Kh,Ks,5c,5s,5h ]

Maybe I should have realized I was beat... lose less money, if you want to see the complete history let me know! arrgh!

Big J

Did you bet and get raised on the Flop and turn both times? If so you might have put you opponent on trip 5's at least and mucked the hand...Aces can't win everytime, especially in limit.

BBC Z

I don't think you could ever really throw away aces in low limit holdem, but losing $6 bucks on them seems a bit steep. If you figure in a preflop raise, one on the flop and then a reraised turn and a called river thats (1BB+0.5BB+2BB+1BB) 3.5BB Lost. You cost yourself another 2.5BB.

Of course, we don't know how the betting really went down, but it looks like you may want to switch into check/call mode when the flop comes with a pair..


Anyway, beats happen. They suck but you'll get your money back (and more) from guys that wanna call preflop raises with King rag..

ScottyZ

You can't control getting outdrawn, but you can control how much money you lose when it happens. How much money did you put into the pot in when you were behind?

I agree with BBC Z, and don't think you can fold here. It's fairly rare (though definitely not impossible) that you are going to need to fold Aces in limit. You certainly are realistically going to put *some* money into the pot while losing in these particular hands. However, how much money is the question; there are still ways to save bets by knowing when to back off when you suspect that your AA has been cracked.

It's a difficult line to walk between getting full value from your good hands when they are winning and backing off (sometimes slowing down, sometimes folding) when they are not. This is a *major* skill that separates expert low-limit players from good low-limit players.

if you want to see the complete history let me know!

I'm not sure... that might actually turn the thread into something other than a mere bad beat story...

ScottyZ

alex_844

no, i played it badly, i know, i didn't need to lose 6bets each time. i can tell you that in both hands i considered laying them down, i had a sense i might be beat. at the same i was thinking that when i was raised there was a better chance of facing AK then K5. the only thing that really bothers me is it had to happen twice! in five minutes! exactly the same way! just to rub it in my damn face!

Astroboy

No offense but I thinking it's the limit your playing. .50/1 games aren't going to produce the best of players. You're gonna get callers with any kind of hand. When you see a pair on the board, it's very possible somebody caught the set. People will call you down to the river hoping to catch.

ScottyZ

Good point Astroboy. Low-limit opponents will show up with hands that you may consider (to put it lightly) unreasonable. Wipe statements like "my opponent couldn't possibly call a pre-flop raise with a 5" from your low-limit playbook.

I actually missed reading this from the OP:

I preflop raise both times, a few callers... I can't say I really expected K5... twice and not within 5 minutes!!!

The only part that surprises me is the "within 5 minutes" aspect.

I will say (with no sarcasm) that this is exactly the kind of thing that makes low-limit poker great (and highly profitable) if you know how to play accordingly.

ScottyZ

Big J

Scotty, are you telling me that you don't fold Aces playing Limit ever or are you just talking about .50/$1? What if there is a 4 flush on board and there is a bet and a raise in front of you and you don't have the A of that suit? What if the flop comes 789 with a T on the turn and there is a bet and a raise in front of you? Do you really throw away a couple more bets just to see the Straight?

I play the same game regardless of the limit (and acctually play tighter the lower the limit as people tend to see the flop with any junk), If it looks like there is a better than average chance that my pocket pair has been cracked I lay it down, another hand will be along soon There is no need to get into bad habits just because the pot isn't big enough to grab lunch at McDonalds.

ScottyZ

Scotty, are you telling me that you don't fold Aces playing Limit ever or are you just talking about .50/$1?

I don't think I said that.

ScottyZ

Big J

ScottyZ wrote:

I don't think I said that.

ScottyZ wrote:

It's fairly rare (though definitely not impossible) that you are going to need to fold Aces in limit.

What did you mean by that?

I just don't think that it's that rare of an occurance in Limit that ones Aces get cracked (in fact if some calls all the way to the river I'm ussually pretty sure that they have something better). In No Limit I can make the bet big enough preflop that I should only be playing against decent hands but in Limit all you can do is make it 2 bets and anyone who wants to see a flop will pay the extra bet.

ScottyZ

*sigh*

I'm getting flashbacks of going 12 rounds with MiamiKeith about my (mis)use of the word "slightly".

The phrases "fairly rare" and "don't...ever" have different meaning.

ScottyZ

Big J

I just find that people tend to put entirely too much value on AA in Limit. Yes when I get them I throw in a preflop raise and will raise (or attempt a checkraise) on the flop (any flop), but if someone plays back at me it is definately time to re-evaluate the hand.

mac

No Bad beat story, got a 1000 of them as everyone has. And as the saying goes " half the people don't care , and the other half are glad they happened to you". But I did come across a hand at the EX yesterday that i was at a loss at how to get value with.

On the puck (10-20) Black aces (nice), one mp caller, I raise bb calls, mp calls. Board comes down 10-10-A. checked to you. What do you do? Turn comes A number 4, checked to you, what do you do? River brick. Can you make $$ with this hand?

Big J

Ya, in this case I'd check the flop and pray that someone had a 10 or an A (or in this case pocket 4's)...bet the turn and hope for a caller, repeat on the river, can't maske any money without betting.

Oh and thanks for pointing out one of 2 scenarios where I wouldn't bet or checkraise the flop, Aces Full or Quads.

alex_844

this thread became way more ambitious than my original intention! its a discussion of how to play aces in low limit holdem now!

i just thought it was crazy having AA lose fives full of kings twice in five minutes, y'all are stealing my spotlight!

mac

Sorry Big J, maybe you miss understood, The turn is "ace number 4" , you have all the cards, and you probably would have heard already if there was a 10 out there.