Showing vs Mucking at Showdown

tekguy22tekguy22
in General Poker Chat
Ok...this debate came up at the last tourney I was at..not a pro run tourney mind you..just a bunch of friends getting together for some NL hold em. 3 tables were going..this happened at one of the tables I wasn't playing at.

Debate came when 2 players were heads up in a hand and had been betting back and forth every step in the hand

After the river card was shown

Player A bet
player B raised
Player A Called

Player B showed his hand right away and was the winner
Player A saw he was beat and mucked his cards face down

Player B got mad and said that player A had to show his cards because he "Paid to see them"
Player A Said that because he was the final caller he was the one paying off Player B's raise so he didn't have to show his cards. The argument Continued for a while until both were tired of fighting and continued playing. There was never any real final resolution, they just let it go.

Does anyone know what the official rule is in regards to showing vs. Mucking at the end of a NL hold 'em hand...I didn't know you ever "had to show" and you could muck anytime. This is the first time this has come up for me and if it ever does again I'd like to be able to say what the official rule is if there is any.

Comments

  • JohnnieHJohnnieH
    I could be wrong, but I believe the first player (Player A) to bet on the river shows first. Then Player B can show his hand, or muck.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    But I further believe that if the player asks to see the cards, they are supposed to show them.. maybe not a rule, but it is etiquette in my opinion.

    Mark
  • waltsfriendwaltsfriend
    The rule in any casino would be that both players are obligated to show their cards if asked in this situation in the order Player B then Player A (since Player B's bet was the last one called). Anyone at the table can ask to see them if the bet has been called, however good etiquette normally only means the players involved in the hand should ask to see the cards if they are folded face down.
  • Flint BonesFlint Bones
    Sincem player A called he is not required to show his cards first, however, as Mark said if B asks to see the cards A has to show them.
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9
    an interesting twist, from what i have heard...

    any player at the table can ask to see player a's cards. not great etiquette but permissible. if player a has mistakenly mucked the winning hand, the pot is awarded to player b as expected. however, if player b asked to see player a's hand and it was the winning hand and has not yet been placed in the muck by the dealer, player a gets the pot. be careful what you ask for...
  • tekguy22tekguy22
    Since my post I have been looking into this a bit more. In my research I have found the following in "Roberts Rules" about the showdown

    "If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there is a side pot, players involved in the side pot should show their hands before anyone who is all-in for only the main pot."

    So if you equate this to my post Player B has to show his hand...it's player A's option to fold or muck.

    if anyone has anything else to add pls do...but as of right now this is the best explination I have found
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    Kick both players in the nuts for being nits that won't just show their damn hands at showdown and move on to the next one.
  • waltsfriendwaltsfriend
    tekguy22 wrote: »
    Since my post I have been looking into this a bit more. In my research I have found the following in "Roberts Rules" about the showdown

    "If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there is a side pot, players involved in the side pot should show their hands before anyone who is all-in for only the main pot."

    So if you equate this to my post Player B has to show his hand...it's player A's option to fold or muck.

    if anyone has anything else to add pls do...but as of right now this is the best explination I have found

    I don't see anything in this post that says one way or the other that says if the players are required to show their hands if asked. Again, I say that from my experience at casinos, anyone has the right to request to see any unshown but "paid for" hands.
  • waltsfriendwaltsfriend
    pkrfce9 wrote: »
    an interesting twist, from what i have heard...

    any player at the table can ask to see player a's cards. not great etiquette but permissible. if player a has mistakenly mucked the winning hand, the pot is awarded to player b as expected. however, if player b asked to see player a's hand and it was the winning hand and has not yet been placed in the muck by the dealer, player a gets the pot. be careful what you ask for...

    A good dealer in this situation will tap the muck with the cards before showing them. As soon as the folded hand touches the muck it is considered a dead hand. I saw this exact situtation at Casino Rama with a three-way pot where one player was all-in. There was a request to see a folded hand (from someone not in the hand) and the dealer forgot to tap the muck before showing the hand that turned out to be the winner of the sidepot. After much discussion that included the floor manager, the sidepot was awarded to the newly shown hand. Watch at the casino next time this happens and you will see the dealer tap.
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