frustration at donkeys + no cards
I played about 15 hours at 1000 Islands poker room this past weekend and nothing went right. I feel I played well but got sucked out on by people who were gambling huge. 7-8 players on most flops. One lady proudly flipped over her cards and pronounced "three pair!", thinking she beat another donkey's 2 outer set on the river.
It was frustrating seeing all the dead money coming to the table but not getting any cards to scoop it up. Typical problems at low limit B&M: raises mean nothing; so many players seeing flops that most pots are won by 2-pair or better; etc...
My question to the more experienced players here is how do you handle this type of game? My strategy has been to wait for good cards and then usually hammer away, or maybe slowplay a really strong flop. But what do you do when the cards don't come or the flops don't hit? I feel I am missing some parts to my game to take better advantage of thes games.
It was frustrating seeing all the dead money coming to the table but not getting any cards to scoop it up. Typical problems at low limit B&M: raises mean nothing; so many players seeing flops that most pots are won by 2-pair or better; etc...
My question to the more experienced players here is how do you handle this type of game? My strategy has been to wait for good cards and then usually hammer away, or maybe slowplay a really strong flop. But what do you do when the cards don't come or the flops don't hit? I feel I am missing some parts to my game to take better advantage of thes games.
Comments
If you hit BET BET RAISE and RERAISE. Build the pot and let them pay to suck out. Outside of that not much you can do but pray you get paid off and not get sucked out on.
And never ever EVER slow play in limit, you're just losing value.
/g2
Absolutely. So many people don't seem to understand WHY you would slowplay a hand (to disguise your hand such that you will extract more on later streets). They just see a semi safe flop (top set on an uncoordinated flop) and think "wow, I have a monster, better slowplay". If this gets less money into the pot than by simply betting/raising, then your slowplay is simply a bad play (which is often the case in FL poker since you don't have the opportunity to make big river bets). Not to even mention that people will slowplay questionable hands on draw heavy boards that are bound to get paid off if they simply bet.
Another way, which is probably more effective in the low limit games, is to allow everyone to see the river cheaply, and play it from there. Even if you flop a monster like top set, dont bother raising the pot till the river card is dealt. Because even with top set, if you're against 2 open end straight draws, and 2 flush draws, the odds of you winning is not that great. Also you might even win more money, because guys with bottom pair are staying in cheap so they can turn and river 2 pair when they're drawing dead.
April Fools? It's February man!
POTD!!!!!!!
I don't get you here. I was actually being serious. If you don't believe me, run the hands through an odds calculator if you want. Give yourself a hand like JJ, and put the board out as J 10 3 4, etc, with 2 different flush draws, and 2 guys holding open end straight draws, I guarantee you, that you're under a 50% favourite to win the hand.
You play 20/40 and you don't understand pot equity? No wonder brantford is a fish fry.
Or did you mean .20/.40 online? That's more believable.
Edit #1: I leave it as an exercise to the readers as to why everything that Mr Korn has said is terrible.
Don't take this the wrong way, but this is horrible advice, and the very definition of scared poker.
Sure, against someone who's holding a flush draw and someone with an OESD you may be less than 50% to win the hand, BUT, they're less than you.. and if I'm ahead, I'm willing to put as much money as possible into the pot. That's good poker. Your approach allows them to beat you for free! This is the same as sitting your star player to avoid injury - you're not exploiting your advantages for fear of monsters under the bed!
As for the OP... B&M games are just nut-peddling... if you're card dead, DON'T try to make moves against the unbluffables. ALWAYS bet your hands for value if you've hit well (2 pair or better), and DON'T drop yourself down to their level by playing crappy cards.... solid, tight, aggressive poker will make these games profitable.
Mark
P.S. if you do flop top set, jam the living s#$t outta that board!!
What about pot equity, when you play a limit cash game, almost everyone is given the right price to chase their draw. I'm just trying to explain to the low limit cash game players that play pots with 7-8 guys to a flop and 5 guys to the river, that even with the best hand on the turn, most of the time they are actually going to lose the hand on the river, since more than half the deck will hurt them, so technically it's not a bad beat.
All you guys seem to know is how to calculate M, variance, expected value, etc, and how to play good cards in what position, and always do probe bets, etc. Honestly if you really doubt my play, then come sit down with me at a cash game.
"Flame on!"
Example: Let's say you're in a three-handed flop with top set, and you've "only" 40% to win, you're saying check it down to the river, and make a bet on the river if you're good, thereby earning yourself 2BB, okay, well, you run it ten times, and (on average), you will win pots of 4.5BB (3x.5BB pre-flop and 3x1 BB river) 40% of the time (pre-flop calls, and river bets) for a grand total of 18BB. You lose 60% of the time, and lose 0.5BB (because you called for the flop and didn't get bet at - rare, but the math is easier). You'll lose 3BB for a sum total of 15BB / 10 hands... that's pretty good!!
Now, my way
Three to the flop, I hit top set, and let's say everyone's REAL passive. Again, I'm only 40% to win the hand. If I call pre-flop and then bet every street including the river, each pot will be 9BB (1.5 Pre-flop / flop, 3 on turn and river). I win 4x for a total of 36BB, but I lose 3BB every time I lose (6 times) for a loss of 18BB, meaning I win 18BB every ten hands.
Therefore, using this simple example (oh and BTW.. it's IMPOSSIBLE to fully know that your two opponents have draws, these levels they'll call down with top pair / over pair etc), I'm making 18BB to your 15BB in the same number of hands, or rougly 20% more than you - I like.
Mark
Edit: Please don't counter with "Well, if you get unlucky and lose 10 in a row, then you're down huge" well, that's results-oriented thinking, and NOT good poker.
/g2
The situation I was referring to, is when you get 7-8 hands to a flop, and where at least 5 people go to the river.
I also only used the example of top set, to indicate how such a strong hand sometimes is not the favourite to win when 5 guys are going to the river, so you would understand how a hand like TPTK or 2 pair can lose just as easily.
You still have to put money in the pot, i doubt all 7 players are all going to go check-check. But I see people pump the pot, raise, reraise, when everyone is calling, and then the river card hits and they complain they got bad beat, when they were going to lose 6 out of 10 times at least.
Funny, how I never hear of people complaining at roulette when the play black, and it lands on red.
In poker it is +EV to bet when you are ahead. Simple. There is a flaw in your logic. I'll try to explain this as simply as possible. By raising you are getting more money in the pot from EVERYONE. Say your raising puts another $10 in the pot from 5 players. Sure you're gonna lose 6/10 times... so you're losing $60... but the 4/10 times you win... you are winning 5*$40 = $200... so all in the long term you are +$140. Sounds good to me
/g2
Except your hand IS a favourite to win. It doesn't matter if it's > 50% or not. You have a monstrous equity advantage over any other hand in that pot. And quite frankly you can't say that TPTK can lose "just as easily" as top set. They are much, much different situations.
20-40 live is REALLY this bad?!?...wow, I need a bankroll.
You're not a favorite against WHO? Let's say that you're facing a table where EVERYONE called, and they ALL have a draw (completely impossible btw)... if you have a top set on a board that isn't a made straight / flush, then YOU ARE WINNING, and should bet.
If you are only 10% favorite and you bet on every street.. the one time you win, you're gettin 30BB, and only losing 3BB / hand which means it's a push! That isn't possible with top set! This example is if everyone did not look at their cards, always put in one bet / round, and then on the river flipped them up... in other words.. this is RANDOM. BUT, if you're even a 15% favorite to win, you're MAKING MONEY BY BETTING.
Bottom line is:
- Number of other players are irrelevant
- Number of draws are irrelevant
- If you have top set, on a non-flushed, non-straighted board, you should be getting as much money in as possible.
Now, should the flush hit on the turn, you would be making a mistake by betting in, and playing your way, you also have no pot odds to call for the boat (i.e. 10 outs for the boat -- ~20% to win). In your scenario, there's 1.5BB preflop, 1.5BB after the flop (nobody bets), and the flush hits on the turn, and you're in position say the guy bets, gets called (pot: 3.5BB) 3.5:1 odds is incorrect to call for a 4:1 draw: you're wrong to make the call now.
My way: 1.5BB preflop, 3BB after flop, and with the turn completing the flush, his 1BB bet and a caller makes the pot 5BB, so my 5:1 pot odds makes calling for my 4:1 draw the right move. Even without the caller it's a decent call for implied odds on the river!
In summary, your way does minimize your losses, but it also
- Minimizes your winnings
- Removes your re-draw potentials
- Allows other players to beat you for free (the cardinal sin of poker IMO)
Mark