A question re: a ruling
Playing in one of those bar games, pirana poker tour, and the following occurs.
3 players to the flop after a raise from utg+2. BB and UTG call. Flop J 7 3 rainbow. Check, check, Original raiser fires out 800. Both players call. Turn 2. Check, check, Original raiser fires out 1000. BB mulls over the call and the Original raiser announces "So do you have the Jack?" while flipping his cards as if he is going to muck. BB calls the 1000, UTG mucks, BB then shows his AJ face up on the deck and the original raiser mucks his cards face down in the pile.
Now, to me, it looked as though the original raiser had chips concealed (not necessarily on purpose) in his hand. I think at this point that the BB thought that the original raiser was all in. While the Original raiser thought that all the cards had been shown.
At this point I state, "hey guys, there is another card to come." The original raiser retreives his 88 from the pile, the river is shown and he still looses. What would you do if you were the TD in this case? I wasn't sure on the ruling myself but found that the outcome didn't sit very well with me.
stp
3 players to the flop after a raise from utg+2. BB and UTG call. Flop J 7 3 rainbow. Check, check, Original raiser fires out 800. Both players call. Turn 2. Check, check, Original raiser fires out 1000. BB mulls over the call and the Original raiser announces "So do you have the Jack?" while flipping his cards as if he is going to muck. BB calls the 1000, UTG mucks, BB then shows his AJ face up on the deck and the original raiser mucks his cards face down in the pile.
Now, to me, it looked as though the original raiser had chips concealed (not necessarily on purpose) in his hand. I think at this point that the BB thought that the original raiser was all in. While the Original raiser thought that all the cards had been shown.
At this point I state, "hey guys, there is another card to come." The original raiser retreives his 88 from the pile, the river is shown and he still looses. What would you do if you were the TD in this case? I wasn't sure on the ruling myself but found that the outcome didn't sit very well with me.
stp
Comments
The actions taken by the person that mucked would not have happened had the cards not been exposed.
Very tricky situation.
How I would look at the situation if I was the TD:
[1] one of my favourite things to do when i have a strong hand, or sometimes a weak hand, just to avoid predictability
[2] the hand is now headsup, so [3] is allowed. if the BB had exposed his hand before UTG mucked BB's hand would be mucked and the pot would then be contested between UTG and the original raiser
[4] as soon as the original raiser mucked his cards, his hand is dead. i would then be hoping for an 8 on the river, and then i would reward the pot to the BB. how it played out there shouldn't even be a river card dealt, the pot should just go straight to the BB
/g2
/g2
stp
22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.
And of course from the Pirana's Rules
41. The Tournament Director has the final say in ANY and ALL DISPUTES.
I believe in a tournament that any showing of the cards is reason to muck the cards unless the action of the other player caused you to turn them over ie him indicated he is all in when he is not etc. I do not like showing cards at all even when heads up.
This is fine with me. Simple trash talk that does not break any rules.
UTG's cards are clearly dead. The hand is now heads-up.
#1. 10 minute penalty to BB for intentionally exposing cards would be the STANDARD ruling. I would not rule that way. Our tournament rules (from NFCR) allows for this scenario in any heads-up situation.
#2. Original raiser must protect his cards at all times. Forward, face down, released is a MUCK. His cards are dead. BB wins the pot.
Probably 100% correct in your evaluation.
Original raiser gets a 10 minute penalty and a very stern warning about ever trying that trick again. We ban people from the casino for 6 month terms for reaching into the muck and retrieving dead cards.
The result:
Chips were taken out of play untill 2 levels later, about 25 minutes. All players in the pot, including me, were given back their chips and the hand was replayed at the level the incident took place. I folded without looking in protest (lol) of the result as I clearly thought that the honest intentions of the players should have been taken into account and after that you need to let the cards speak.
This is by no means a slight on the TD's from Pirana as they're actually friggin good at interpreting the rules, this one however was a bit testy.
stp
21. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player may not show any cards during a deal (unless the event has only two remaining players). If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.
Give the guy a warning. 10 minutes penalty thereafter. So the guy with the 8's is out and the hand continues with the other 2 players.
Already posted!
Ummm.... re-read the OP. And then continue down through and read ALL of the replies. You have added nothing to the conversation and actually confused the events and therefore the ruling.
I hope it feels so good to be right. There's nothing more exhilerating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?
And FWIW, I'd estimate 75% of ALL posts on this forum add nothing to the conversation, and I think that's being generous.
/g2
stp
I've been shooting for 80% I want to be ABOVE average!!!
Pirana Poker Tour is supposed to follow Robert's Rules of Poker (with a few exceptions such as a forced-check when betting out of turn). The most important Robert's Rule is rule #1, especially in self-dealt bar freerolls:
1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.
If I were the TD in this case, the way it originally played out is fine and play would continue on. Since it was heads-up, the BB mistakenly showing his cards is not a rules violation. I would allow the original raiser to retrieve his cards, applying the following Robert's Rule:
a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.
A ruling on the disputed hand should have been done in the spirit of fairness. It does not make sense to me to nullify the hand and give chips back to all the players who had already lost them. What was the TD's reasoning? Why did it take 25 minutes to make a ruling?
The TDs in these bar freerolls are human and make mistakes. Ideally, they will be made aware of mistakes so that they can do an even better job in all future tournaments.