I cant fold pocket kings right?
Ok i was playin in a tourney tonight at one of the "clubs" and i had just tripled up from being short stacked, the blinds are 100/200 and i tripled up to 3500, not the next hand the bounty guy goes all in for like 2200 and then a guy reraises all in for another 900, so if i call i will be left with 400, everyone folds to me on the button i look down and low and behold , cowboys!!! Now at first im like convincing myself to fold cuz i just got these chips, but then i said " are you retarded" , and called. First raiser had A J off, reraiser had QQ's so i had the best hand , great cal can triple up and be chip leader, what happens the guy spikes a Q on the flop.
Now looking back , can I fold this hand, seriously?
Now looking back , can I fold this hand, seriously?
Comments
I mean, come on...
Seriously.
You have two all ins in front of you.
I ONLY call with AA here, well, actually A-Joker too..
Don't be dumb... KK is worth the double call barring any reads where the second all in guy is from Milton or something... damned rocks.
Disguised bad beat post? Disguised bad beat post.
Mark
Folding K-K pre-flop would be almost as bad as folding A-A just because there is a multi-way all-in. A player I used to respect still insists that he was correct in folding A-A pre-flop when everybody was in-the-money and went all in.
I am not condoning folding AA preflop, but how many other all ins were there in front of him? Did his AA hold up? Doubtful if there were 3 or 4 in the pot.
For results-oriented players, losing with A-A as in my friend's 4-player case will reinforce their mistaken belief that folding A-A is correct. After all but one of our poker buddies agreed with my friend about folding A-A, :eek: my friend wanted me to ask the forum experts such as magithighs, but I didn't want to waste his time at last week's BCC Winter Classic tournament on such a relatively simple A-A situation. If a player can't understand that folding the best possible hand pre-flop is a tragedy, I want that player at my table! >:D
Sorry Blondefish what were the payouts? If 3 or 4 people got knocked out and that meant a substatially larger payout for him then in his mind it was a correct move. He was playing for money and not to win. IF my 2 choices were a call and get 10K if i'm out or fold and hopefully 4 people get eliminated and I get 100K I'd fold. There's more to whether it's a good fold or bad fold than pot odds, the payouts have a lot to do with it.
I think in Angel's book it states that you have about a 13% chance of another player having AA when you have KK at a full table. I will have to double check unless someone else has a copy of his book handy. I have run into AA a couple of times with KK. In any case, I would definitely call all-in with KK pre-flop. You got to figure one of your opponents has an Ace so he only has three outs realistically (ignoring the straight or flush). 3 of of 47 is pretty good, unless you are facing AA and then you are dominated.
Thank you for making me laugh so hard today...and I thought this would just be another boring old Wednesday.
I was in SB.
Preflop it was folded to the Button who raised to $2.
I have KK and raise to $6.
The Big Blind smooth calls.
The Button re-raises all-in (a bet of $12 for a total of $18).
I re-raise all-in (to a total of about $60) - I dont want AK coming in for free.
The Big Blind called the $60.
Flop is a bunch of rags.
Button: QQ
SB (me): KK
BB (drooling): AA
No one improves.
I would make this same play 1000 times and have no problems with it.
Just look at your screen, shake your head and keep playing.
Oh - and laugh at all the other donks who werent even in the hand who spend the next 30mins talking about how Poker Stars is rigged.
Applause
You sir have the right idea and the right attitude!
Cheers
Caddy
Exactly, it's the steep structure of prize payouts that make it such a no-brainer call. One's goal should be to maximize profit or expected value. With first place getting much of the money, you can't ask for a better chance than with everybody going all in and you having the best hand. For those that want to go through the calculations to understand how costly a blunder folding A-A was, let's say that the prize payouts were 40% or $400 for 1st, $200 for 2nd, $150 for 3rd, $100 for 4th and $50 for 5th; assume that my friend had 10,000 in chips, the 2 bigger stacks had 15,000 and the 2 small stacks had 5,000 chips each. I've previously posted mathematical proof of situations involving A-A, so somebody else who doesn't believe me can do it this time.
For those that don't want to do any calculations, just remember the following:
Play to WIN, not to survive.
Play to WIN, not to be second place.
Play to WIN, not to be in-the-money.
Play to WIN, not to move up the ladder.
Play to WIN, not to make it to the next day.
Play to WIN, don't fold A-A pre-flop!
I agree with the play to win, however let's use the WSOP payouts would I call a whole final table all in regardless of my chips with AA or KK. I"d really have to think about it.
With the payouts being:
1 - $12,000,000
2 - $6,102,499
3 - $4,123,310
4 - $3,628,513
5 - $3,216,182
6 - $2,803,851
7 - $2,391,520
8 - $1,979,189
9 - $1,566,858
Would I risk crippling myself if I'm in 7th right now with an 8 way all in in front, probably no. That being said I'm a gambler and if my mindset is if I win this I"m freerolling to 12 mill I might. If 3 or 4 go out I"m making large coin doubling my payday. If I was in 9th I'd be an idiot not to call this. IN WSOP or WPT events the money is key for any non pro.
Sometimes it's not all about the rake and blind structure and prize ladder. Sometimes it's all about making the correct call based on your FEEL of the game.
I ask again, how did your friend (who you have no respect for) do the rest of the way in the tourny?
Live and learn.
Actually, AcidJoe, being the shortest stack is one of the rare cases where it would be correct to FOLD A-A pre-flop in a multi-way all-in. I can post the mathematical details later if anybody wants, but below is a summary.
The approximate $ EV of the shortest stack joining the 9-way all-in with A-A
= 0.82 ($1,586,858) + 0.18 [(0.26 * $12,000,000) + (0.74 * $6,102,499)]
= $2,675,676.
By folding as the shortest stack at the WSOP final table, 9th stack Dan Nassif will be guaranteed to win at least $2,803,851 (top 6) if ANY of the likely scenarios happen:
- ANY of the five biggest stacks wins the main pot. For example, if Jamie Gold wins and eliminates everybody else, you will be the only survivor with 3% of the chips and will likely win the $6,102,494 second place prize.
- 6th, 7th or 8th stack wins the main pot, but a bigger stack wins the side pot, and at least 3 of the 8 players get eliminated.
One of the improbable cases where folding A-A as the shortest stack would result in a lower EV would be if #8 Michael Binger wins the main pot, AND #7 wins the first side pot, AND #6 wins the next side pot, AND #5 wins the next side pot, AND #4 wins the next side pot, AND #3 wins the next pot, AND #2 wins the final side pot, leaving Jamie Gold with 7,880,000 chips. In this highly unlikely scenario, you would be in the same position as before as 9th place in chip position.
If one is a middle stack (such as my friend was or #5 Paul Wasicka in this case), the approximate $ EV of calling with A-A would be
= 0.82 ($3,216,182) + 0.18 [(0.63 * $12,000,000) + (0.37 * $6,102,499)]
= $4,404,496.
With only the top two finishes paying more than $4.4 million, folding as the middle stack would have a lower $ EV. Unlike in the case for the shortest stack, the only good scenarios for the middle stack after folding would be the following:
- #1 stack wins the main pot, leaving you as the only survivor and probably winning the $6.1 million prize.
- #2 Cunningham wins the main pot. Cunningham will have 82% of the chips, while you and Gold will have approximately the same stack.
In all the other cases where #3-#9 wins the main pot, you will have less than 9% of the chips and anywhere between eighth to third in chip position.
In conclusion, if you have a middle or above-average stack, you would generally maximize your EV or money by CALLING with A-A in a multi-way all-in instead of folding.
Me thinks so too