Early round NL tournament play: Two contradictory theories?
Suppose someone tells you that he/she plays a lot of hands pre-flop in the very early stages of a NL tournament because of implied odds, and the ability to profit from good play in later rounds.
Someone else says he/she plays much more tight than usual because according to general poker theory, the pre-flop pots are too small in the early levels to be worth risking your own chips for.
(The same kind of thinking applies in a somewhat similar way to NL cash games with small blinds... whatever "small" means to you. It's not quite the same, since losing your entire buy-in at a cash game is not as much of a disaster as it is in a tournament.)
Clearly you could play the early stages using some sort of mixture of these strategies (e.g. loosen up on drawing hands and tighten up on made hands), but is one of these arguments more fundamentally sound than the other?
ScottyZ
Someone else says he/she plays much more tight than usual because according to general poker theory, the pre-flop pots are too small in the early levels to be worth risking your own chips for.
(The same kind of thinking applies in a somewhat similar way to NL cash games with small blinds... whatever "small" means to you. It's not quite the same, since losing your entire buy-in at a cash game is not as much of a disaster as it is in a tournament.)
Clearly you could play the early stages using some sort of mixture of these strategies (e.g. loosen up on drawing hands and tighten up on made hands), but is one of these arguments more fundamentally sound than the other?
ScottyZ
Comments
v.
Play extra tight because the pots are small.
The answer is probably: "It depends on how well you play the game post flop." If you are very skilled at post-flop play then my instinct tells me that you can get away with the implied odds strategy of playing a lot of pots cheaply. If you are not a great player, though, I think you are much better off playing a tighter style and avoiding hard decisions.
I tend to ask myself: "How well am I playing?" If I feel I have my "A" game then I will play a lot of hands. If I feel I am "off" then I will play a tight, rote strategy.
Then there's the matter of reverse implied odds (sort of). That is, you put your whole stack at risk (in some sense) when you play *any* pot since it's no-limit.
I think a good point is when you say
and don't forget that your own player skill is measured relative to your opponents' skill levels. This is another angle of this whole topic I've been thinking a lot about lately. How do you deal with the presence *terrible* players in the early stages (or any stage for that matter) of tournaments? Do you get in there and get your hands dirty, or sit back and wait for the smoke to clear after the carnage is through? 8)
I don't disgree with anything you've said Dave--- just trying to generate some discussion.
ScottyZ
I was getting rediculous hands, limping in with nothing and making strong hands. Luckily I realize it was just a fluke and will not continue to play this way.
Now this is only correct play if you win a pot or 2 playing this way otherwise you are just bleeding your chips away..So far for me it has worked out ok. (You have to have a feel for the table)
I'm nearby, always looking for a decent, clean game.
hork
I don't think it is exclusively a "relative" skill level. You will need the "absolute" skill of being able to fold when you are beaten.
Playing a lot of hands you are hoping for one of two things: steal the little ones, win the occasional big one when you hit a big flop and get paid off.
In that sense, you are right you will need stronger relative skills -- knowing when the steal is available to you AND having opponents who are willing to lose a lot of chips with a hand like top pair.
You must, however, posses the "absolute" skill of being able to put down a big hand because otherwise you will tend, I think, to bleed yourself to death. Also, position is critical if you want to play the "implied odds game." You cannot afford to play marginal hands out of position against a raiser almost no matter who you are or how well you play.
True, although, as for me, I often don't know where I'm at against bad players (say, if they're bluffing too much). It's much easier if you're in hands against passive and/or weak players; however I like to play more conservatively if there is one (or more) aggressive maniac type players. I find it's hard to get away from your marginal to good hands (e.g. top pair) against a bluffing wacko. In the later stages, it may become more worth it to try to pick off someone like this, but early on if you try to take a stand, you usually end up either winning micro-pots, or losing your whole stack. But all this us basically just re-stating your point I guess--- your ability to determine if you are winning is an important factor on how many hands to get involved in.
Also interesting is the skill mentioned above is the same skill you hope your opponents *don't* have if you're playing implied odds style. (i.e. you can loosen up if you expect to get paid off more often when *you* have the goods).
I think esool also makes a useful point about playing a wide variety of hands when it doesn't cost much to get in. This will help in terms of mixing up your play, especially if you take down a pot early with a hand which might be questionable under normal circumstances. It probably helps to throw off anygood players who are trying to get a read on what kinds of hands you play.
ScottyZ
Maybe in the near future. We have recently had a couple friends of friends join our game, and I don't want to grow it too big too fast and piss off the original crew.
Our game is clean with a decent payout for the top 3 finishers plus the champ carries the token trophy untill the next game.
You will need to have a great sense of humour to play with us. The game is serious but fun. :twisted: There is a lot of trash talking and references to players mothers.
I'm all about "your mother" jokes.
I understand that you're good with your current group, nevertheless, if you find you are short a player or two some day PM or email me, I'd be happy to join in with you guys. I also have a friend or two that I am able to bring. I think one of them just joined this forum.
hork
I would prefer one of my buddies to start this other regular game at their place but since they are are all a bunch of followers and can't organize a thought let alone a game it will be left to me. :x
I'll keep you posted.