New rule at the WPT event..?

ZithalZithal
in WSOP / WPT / EPT Discussion
Just say this posted on Card Player and wondered if anyone has any information about it. (ie. What problem is this rule addressing? Why was it implemented? etc.)

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around it...

New Rule
Tournament officials just made an announcement about a new rule that is in place at the World Poker Open. It was announced that after the river is out and you are the last to act, if you hold the nuts and check, you will receive a 10-minute penalty.

Needless to say, this has spurred many interesting conversations at almost every table.

Comments

  • g2g2
    What if you're going for the record for slow playing?

    /g2
  • stpboystpboy
    Perhaps they've had some issues with players soft playing eachother.

    stp
  • HobbesHobbes
    I can see alot of players getting penalized. I've seen it myself, where a player checks (or even just calls) on the river with the nuts. They didn't even know they had it.
  • g2g2
    I personally like the rule. Depending on the situation it either penalizes soft-play or stupidity :)

    /g2
  • SirWattsSirWatts
    I really don't see what this rule accomplishes. This is really not going to stop softplaying at all, and I'd rather keep anyone stupid enough not to bet/raise the nuts at the table, not on penalty.
  • JohnnieHJohnnieH
    g2 wrote: »
    I personally like the rule. Depending on the situation it either penalizes soft-play or stupidity :)

    /g2

    Does this mean that a new rule will be implemented for WPC Tournaments in 2007?

    Johnnie
  • g2g2
    JohnnieH wrote: »
    Does this mean that a new rule will be implemented for WPC Tournaments in 2007?

    Johnnie
    Ask Robert ;)

    /g2
  • AcidJoeAcidJoe
    Let's look at a dumb example. I raise with AK of clubs and Zithal calls in the BB with AdKs Flop comes T J Q rainbow (no clubs) I bet Zithal calls....turn and river are 2 and 3..... If we both check the river assuming that are reads are we are splitting the pot I would receive a penalty for failing to bet the river? Seems dumb to me.

    There have been many times when I am *sure* we are chopping and I'll just check since the only logical conclusion is we have the same hand.
  • g2g2
    Even better... if the board is a royal flush and it gets checked down, the last player to act gets a penalty lol.

    /g2
  • HobbesHobbes
    AcidJoe wrote: »

    There have been many times when I am *sure* we are chopping and I'll just check since the only logical conclusion is we have the same hand.

    I wouldn't in a tourney, only possibly a cash game to avoid the rake.
  • stpboystpboy
    AcidJoe wrote: »
    Let's look at a dumb example. I raise with AK of clubs and Zithal calls in the BB with AdKs Flop comes T J Q rainbow (no clubs) I bet Zithal calls....turn and river are 2 and 3..... If we both check the river assuming that are reads are we are splitting the pot I would receive a penalty for failing to bet the river? Seems dumb to me.

    There have been many times when I am *sure* we are chopping and I'll just check since the only logical conclusion is we have the same hand.


    I've never checked the nuts on the river unless I was softplaying (Yeah sure I did it a long time ago once at Brantford when I didn't know it was sooo bad). I don't know if you're reads can EVER be that good that you would check the nuts to avoid the strenuous activity of pushing your chips in...
    That's just wrong!

    stp
  • speedmasterspeedmaster
    Stupid rule if true, but I guess it's one way for the organizers to prevent collusion.

    I just don't like the fact that the tourny directors are telling you how to play your hand (even though only an idiot would check the nuts on the river in a tourny). It should be the player's decision to either raise, call, fold or check their hand in any and every situation.

    Too bad there isn't a foolproof method of detecting collusion in poker.



    Just my 1/2 cent.
    Speedmaster.
  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    The point of the tournament is to accumulate all of the chips in play. If you check the nuts on the river (as the last to act!) you are not playing the tournament. You MUST bet.

    At first I loved this rule...now, not so much. The reason is that there are already clear rules against collusion and soft-play; if someone does this, they should be DQ'd. The rule seems to have been made because a supervisor or TD did not have the balls to throw someone out of their tournament. It is almost like saying "cheating is not allowed...BUT, if you cheat, you only get a 10-minute penalty."!?!?!

    If, on the river, you are last to act and you have the nuts and you check, you are soft-playing your opponent(s) and this is collusion....please leave your chips and leave the tournament area (your money will NOT be refunded!).
  • BigChrisElBigChrisEl
    13CARDS wrote: »

    If, on the river, you are last to act and you have the nuts and you check, you are soft-playing your opponent(s) and this is collusion....please leave your chips and leave the tournament area (your money will NOT be refunded!).

    Not true, if you have he nuts and you are 100% sure that your opponent will fold if you bet and you want to see his cards you could check on the end and then ask to see his cards.

    If you bet and he folds then you will never know what he had and sometimes that information can be more valuable then a smallish bet on the end.
  • IM-ON-TILTIM-ON-TILT
    I agree wiht bigchris point, what if you checked just to see what your opponent's holding which can be very valuable info knowing that he will fold because it's obvious you have the best hand. Also sometimes, you can be unaware that you have the nuts...we all overlook our cards and make mistakes.
    BigChrisEl wrote: »
    Not true, if you have he nuts and you are 100% sure that your opponent will fold if you bet and you want to see his cards you could check on the end and then ask to see his cards.

    If you bet and he folds then you will never know what he had and sometimes that information can be more valuable then a smallish bet on the end.
  • Flint BonesFlint Bones
    I think it is one of the things that can be misinterpreted. If you're going to nail someone for collusion and it is all based on the play of ONE hand than that's just stupid. I have not bet the river in such a case as I wanted to see what the other person had. I knew if I bet that they'd fold. Maybe they would have made a play at me, I don't know but I shouldn't be penalized for not betting. If there was a consistent pattern to it then by all means things should be done. I think a bigger issue is when someone else comments on your hand when they're not in play.
  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    Flint Bones wrote: »
    I have not bet the river in such a case as I wanted to see what the other person had. I knew if I bet that they'd fold. Maybe they would have made a play at me, I don't know...

    You have not bet, on the river, as the last to act, while holding the nuts?? So you could see your opponent's cards?

    And you think "maybe they would have made a play at you"? And that would be bad, considering you are playing a tournament (trying to get ALL of the chips) and holding the nuts....????
  • Flint BonesFlint Bones
    No them making a play would have been a good thing, that's why I question my play to just to see their cards but my point is that I did it to see the cards and I shouldn't be penalized for it.
  • povedawgpovedawg
    That is ridiculous. Let the player slow play there opponent.
  • g2g2
    povedawg wrote: »
    That is ridiculous. Let the player slow play there opponent.
    Riiiiiiight.

    /g2
  • AirportClubAirportClub
    Personally this rule will prevent you from finding info on some players. Like bigchris said, what if you are involved in a big hand, and you have a player check calling your big bets the whole way. If I had enough chips at this stage in the tournament and what not I would check the nuts on the river for info on how the player plays and what he was chasing or check calling with. This could be vital info. Plus I would get my penalty and go get some food, a beer and let my chip stack sit there. I believe you will find this being used a lot by new players, and I can see the WPT chaging this rule back, once a few tournaments have a large % of the field getting penalties and making the tournament directors have another huge thing to focus on now.
  • MidnightMikeMidnightMike
    I dont see it as a problem if you put the other player in a headsup with the same hand, check. But whats the difference if its gonna be a split pot, all-in.
  • Jays_06Jays_06
    this rule to me makes no sense. and if someone is penalized for this rule when they have no prior knowledge of this rule being made there is going to be some fireworks on the set of the WPT.
  • FusionFusion
    stpboy wrote: »
    I've never checked the nuts on the river ......... I don't know if you're reads can EVER be that good that you would check the nuts to avoid the strenuous activity of pushing your chips in...
    That's just wrong!

    stp
    everything stp said, you have the nuts and are last to act, of course you bet, anything else is bizarre or softplaying.

    Good rule, and obviously there has been a problem with it or it wouldn't have been introduced.
  • FusionFusion
    g2 wrote: »
    Even better... if the board is a royal flush and it gets checked down, the last player to act gets a penalty lol.

    /g2
    so bet, what's the big deal?
  • FusionFusion
    IM-ON-TILT wrote: »
    I agree wiht bigchris point, what if you checked just to see what your opponent's holding which can be very valuable info knowing that he will fold because it's obvious you have the best hand. Also sometimes, you can be unaware that you have the nuts...we all overlook our cards and make mistakes.
    I don't agree, tournies are finite and you need to get chips, the guy may be off your table in a couple of hands, and again you can never be that sure that you won't pick up a few chips. How much will he call for with two pair or a set? Finding that out is even more valueable, bet and see what happens.
  • FusionFusion
    AirportClub wrote: »
    Personally this rule will prevent you from finding info on some players. Like bigchris said, what if you are involved in a big hand, and you have a player check calling your big bets the whole way. If I had enough chips at this stage in the tournament and what not I would check the nuts on the river for info on how the player plays and what he was chasing or check calling with. This could be vital info. Plus I would get my penalty and go get some food, a beer and let my chip stack sit there. I believe you will find this being used a lot by new players, and I can see the WPT chaging this rule back, once a few tournaments have a large % of the field getting penalties and making the tournament directors have another huge thing to focus on now.
    He's check called all the way and you don't bet again on the river? Why wouldn't you, the guy is a calling staion? You need more info than that?
  • g2g2
    Fusion wrote: »
    so bet, what's the big deal?
    But if you get raised you have to fold then. It's definitely -EV to bet here.

    /g2
  • IM-ON-TILTIM-ON-TILT
    Of course I would bet, but the question is, if I don't...why should I get a penalty?
    Fusion wrote: »
    I don't agree, tournies are finite and you need to get chips, the guy may be off your table in a couple of hands, and again you can never be that sure that you won't pick up a few chips. How much will he call for with two pair or a set? Finding that out is even more valueable, bet and see what happens.
  • ChrisWinsorChrisWinsor
    Great rule, for some reason I cant shake the feeling it's directed at when men are in hands with women
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