Value of Trash Talk?
I am wondering what people think about using trash talk as a potential tool in various ways. Oddly enough an episode of Live Poker a few days that All_Aces was on talking about how he talks a bit of trash got me thinking about it, and a fun trash talk session today inspired me to post.
I kind of enjoy some good banter and am always willing to join in. The main situations I find I use it are the following:
1) When there is someone educating everyone every hand at the table, pretty much always for their own ego gratification.
I find in these cases that it is quite easy to distract the "expert" into a flame war and shake the table up and basically allow the fish they are mocking to be fish.
2) When there is a loudmouth idiot.
This is the guy that yells at you for calling his $1 bet in a $20 pot with a flush draw calling you a chaser when you hit and get his $100 buy in when the flush hits on the river and beats his trips he underplayed.
When done properly these guys can be set on tilt. Usually a routine where you act like a complete poker moron (oh I thought 4 clubs made a flush already) or if they are the macho type a man vs man type approach will really get the most value out of them.
Offshoots of this are usually a heads up challenge is made and if lucky physical threats =O.
3) The pretend big timer
This is the guy who is all talk, talk, talk but when push comes to shove there is no backing his talk.
Today at Stars I was sampling some $25 NL Omaha hi/lo to determine the VPP/100 hand rate (not too good to be honest, expected better), and the table had the archtype of this personality.
This guy claimed to have made more on Pokerstars without making a deposit (a bizarre claim), he claimed to have beaten people for over $8,000 a shot. Claimed to have over $100,000 etc.
This would be at the $25 buy in table.... from a guy who plays in on average $4 sit and gos and $2 tournaments. Note, I am not saying in any way that playing those limits is wrong, just that it gives amusing context to his claims.
When I see this I usually have a very good time with it and keep track of how many claims a person will make without actually backing them up. This guy (sadly a fellow Canadian) made so many I lost track.
In the end he of course did not prove he even had the bankroll to even sit at a high level table (I offered him $100 to just sit at the 10k buy in with max buy in and sit out, he said it was not worth his time as he ironically took time to think about whether to bet a quarter or 50 cents into a pot
).
The last line he said as I was leaving (he said in general to the table unsolicited) "don't forget...I'm billing 320/hr as I play this is pennies"
Safe to say we have all seen variations of this guy before, by far my favorite type of target for trash talk.
That specific trash talk session pretty much ended after he chat bannned me (which I always regard as a victory :P) and googled my user name to make implied threats/hints about identity with the standard lack of any details to back it (I prefer the physical threats, but his vague online ones worked also for my amusement).
The interesting thing about this trash talk approach is that it greatly tightens the target involved (he barely played a hand since it started and has check folded every flop he has seen), as he does not even want to lose a hand at a showdown for fear of losing face.
Now, the common time people trash talk are when I do not, namely
1) Berating the bad players
With rare exceptions (ok when someone folds preflop on the button for their first fold preflop in 150 hands I have to ask what doesnt make the cut :P), I will never trash talk a horrid horrid player. Why educate them at all. I will trash talk those who trash talk the bad players.
2) Racists/Sexists/Homophobes
I just report these guys, I have no interest in talaking to them at all.
Also, I never use obsenity or personal insults when I trash talk, and I never, ever use any racist,sexist type language.
Couple last things about trashtalk is sometimes it can just be fun to do it (for some, not all, people). Once in a while I will come accross someone else who gets that and we will trash talk both knowing its basically a joke the whole time while usually a good chunk of the rest of the table does not get that.
One thing I do find I have to watch out for is if I am multi tabling which is basically always I have to not get too involved in any trash talk or else I start player not as well on other tables. At times it is a tricky balance to maintain, but the flip side is I find it sometimes energizes me during a dull session.
What do other people think about trashtalk as for lack of a better term a tool?
I kind of enjoy some good banter and am always willing to join in. The main situations I find I use it are the following:
1) When there is someone educating everyone every hand at the table, pretty much always for their own ego gratification.
I find in these cases that it is quite easy to distract the "expert" into a flame war and shake the table up and basically allow the fish they are mocking to be fish.
2) When there is a loudmouth idiot.
This is the guy that yells at you for calling his $1 bet in a $20 pot with a flush draw calling you a chaser when you hit and get his $100 buy in when the flush hits on the river and beats his trips he underplayed.
When done properly these guys can be set on tilt. Usually a routine where you act like a complete poker moron (oh I thought 4 clubs made a flush already) or if they are the macho type a man vs man type approach will really get the most value out of them.
Offshoots of this are usually a heads up challenge is made and if lucky physical threats =O.
3) The pretend big timer
This is the guy who is all talk, talk, talk but when push comes to shove there is no backing his talk.
Today at Stars I was sampling some $25 NL Omaha hi/lo to determine the VPP/100 hand rate (not too good to be honest, expected better), and the table had the archtype of this personality.
This guy claimed to have made more on Pokerstars without making a deposit (a bizarre claim), he claimed to have beaten people for over $8,000 a shot. Claimed to have over $100,000 etc.
This would be at the $25 buy in table.... from a guy who plays in on average $4 sit and gos and $2 tournaments. Note, I am not saying in any way that playing those limits is wrong, just that it gives amusing context to his claims.
When I see this I usually have a very good time with it and keep track of how many claims a person will make without actually backing them up. This guy (sadly a fellow Canadian) made so many I lost track.
In the end he of course did not prove he even had the bankroll to even sit at a high level table (I offered him $100 to just sit at the 10k buy in with max buy in and sit out, he said it was not worth his time as he ironically took time to think about whether to bet a quarter or 50 cents into a pot
).The last line he said as I was leaving (he said in general to the table unsolicited) "don't forget...I'm billing 320/hr as I play this is pennies"
Safe to say we have all seen variations of this guy before, by far my favorite type of target for trash talk.
That specific trash talk session pretty much ended after he chat bannned me (which I always regard as a victory :P) and googled my user name to make implied threats/hints about identity with the standard lack of any details to back it (I prefer the physical threats, but his vague online ones worked also for my amusement).
The interesting thing about this trash talk approach is that it greatly tightens the target involved (he barely played a hand since it started and has check folded every flop he has seen), as he does not even want to lose a hand at a showdown for fear of losing face.
Now, the common time people trash talk are when I do not, namely
1) Berating the bad players
With rare exceptions (ok when someone folds preflop on the button for their first fold preflop in 150 hands I have to ask what doesnt make the cut :P), I will never trash talk a horrid horrid player. Why educate them at all. I will trash talk those who trash talk the bad players.
2) Racists/Sexists/Homophobes
I just report these guys, I have no interest in talaking to them at all.
Also, I never use obsenity or personal insults when I trash talk, and I never, ever use any racist,sexist type language.
Couple last things about trashtalk is sometimes it can just be fun to do it (for some, not all, people). Once in a while I will come accross someone else who gets that and we will trash talk both knowing its basically a joke the whole time while usually a good chunk of the rest of the table does not get that.
One thing I do find I have to watch out for is if I am multi tabling which is basically always I have to not get too involved in any trash talk or else I start player not as well on other tables. At times it is a tricky balance to maintain, but the flip side is I find it sometimes energizes me during a dull session.
What do other people think about trashtalk as for lack of a better term a tool?
Comments
The ONLY exception where I'd be inclined to give any of these guys the benefit of the doubt is when they're truly horrid to boot, in which case, I'm likely to stroke their ego.
Personally, I tend to multitable, so most of the time I'm too busy and could care less about conversing. Live is much different as there's a social aspect to the game.
Generally, I wouldn't even consider this trash talk. It's more along the lines of "table banter". A good (enjoyable) background table banter is always a plus live, both from the game enjoyment perspective, not to mention, it generally puts people more at ease, resulting in a looser table IMO. God bless those awful players that we all know, that seem to take pleasure in losing. Anybody can be a gracious winner. It's losing with class that's tougher.
I found that I became too involved and it became personal. Not personal in the sense that I took offense to him/her talking about my momma, but personal in the sense that it made me really want to stack them/eliminate them more than other players at the table. This selective thinking about one player, at a full table of other players, cannot be good for your (my) game...
Does this mean I'm weak? perhaps. I just do not get involved in the chat box at all now, unless, as mentioned earlier, there is some positive banter taking place...
The angry maniacs will make it their goal to stack you and what utterly annoys them is if you start pretty much folding nearly every hand. They will mock you in any limited way they can to try to get you to loosen up, and if you take it personally and try to stack them you are playing into their style not yours so the advantage is theirs. I just wait on these guys to charge into a monster I have - I never bet because they need to feel like they are bullying me. After I win a hand I will always thank them which somehow makes them madder (go figure).
The know it all like today's target falls much more squarely in the trash talk for my own entertainment value and when I do that I do have to be careful about my other tables, so I tend to do it when I am closing down tables and can have a little fun with the talk. The results can really be amazing in terms of what people online will claim, all of which they cannot and will not prove (with a plethora of excuses and or distracting flames to change the topic as their ammo).
A small sampling of claims made by the person today included (note how some seem to conflict just a bit):
- Biggest winner in the history of Pokerstars without ever buying in
- Has never made a deposit (I never get this boast, is it macho to bypass $600-1000 in reload bonuses every year?)
- Bankroll of $100,000+
- Extensive pokertracker database
- Plays casually for fun as money means nothing
- Has played over 1,000,000 hands, plays 10,000+ hands in a session
- $50 profit is a good day
- Has beaten fish for 5 figures. Cannot provide any hand histories to prove it (despite the database and all...)
- Makes hundreds an hour in his regular job
- Takes pride in Lee Jones having called him the best Omaha player on the site.
Their were so many more I lost track, but the last point was one he kept going on and on about and for that he had hand histories to "prove" it. In fact it was the only time he ever offered proof.
The hand where he says it is (xxxxed out player names)
Lee Jones [observer] said, "I mean, I can take it away if you prefer."
xxxxx, "are you making your holiday rounds?"
Lee Jones [observer] said, "Part of my job."
*** FLOP *** [3c 2h 5c]
yyyyy said, "don't you just love him already lee?"
EvilPJ: checks
Lee Jones [observer] said, "One of the best, in fact"
After asking for proof who Lee was talking about the target proudly gave me the hand history of the hand just before this when I asked to show Lee asking if he was there at the table, as by doing so it implied that he was the best being talked about in the next hand
Problem was the hands were several minutes apart and the player balances were out of whack as they would be if 4-5 hands had taken place in between these two hands. Moral of the story - don't give out hand hostories which show detailed time and balances if they do not back your claims :P
As odd as it sounds I got great entertainment value out of watching one wild claim after another come from this person, and as I stated earlier as mean as it sounds that can add some energy to a otherwise dull poker session.
Beat: You spent way too much time talking about this guy
Variance: THere's about a million guys just like him out there.
LOL BBC Zaments
The stickied thread
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6660788&an=0&page=0#Post6660788
includes some very funny posts to read.
Also they had a long thread that compared pictures of poker pros with "look alikes" that was very funny, but I am not sure what forum it was on.
pokerforum.ca is not BBV (where LOL Donkaments is obviously stale) but since he referenced BBV I was sending one back. Try and keep up Monte :eek:
Back to you OP which is a good one BTW. I would say this:
If your trash talk can take a players mind off of his task at hand or get him to play differently than his normal style than you win!
EG: A tight player who tries to get LAGY because you have tilted him will not be very good at this style. He is not familiar with the nuances of playing LAG and will probably make some big mistakes that you can capitalize on.
Caddy