Pushing back at a table bully...easy call?
$10+1 single table SnG, absolutely crazy play...not sure if the players are bad or just simply crazy....starting stacks were $2,000 and blinds I think started at $20/40, saw an all-in with two players in level 2 both players very comfortable M's onle shows T7, the other Qx. Qx won that hand and is the player I eventually get tangled up with....he took severe swings pushing and calling with absolute garbage, basically I pegged him as a maniac just trying to bully the table.
Anyways, I played fairly tight, fighting back with solid hands but basically floated until 5 players were left, with blinds 150/300 I'm sitting with about 1700 and the chip leader is raising every hand...I'm in the BB with 55 and push all-in on his predicatable raise, he calls showing T6 and my 5's hold up, now I'm sitting in 4th very close to third and chip lead has dropped to 2nd....I fold my SB and then on the button I get TT, uber-raiser is the BB. I make it $1000 to go (my stack I think was around 3500) and he re-raises me all-in.
The rest of the players were tight, if I win the hand I'm chip lead, he's crippled and with a player already sitting around $600 in chips in 5th place I easily money...if I fold I'm left 4th out of 5 with $2500 with the blinds going up in the next hand I'm in the red basically waiting to push on any two cards.
Can you fold here or is it an easy call?
Anyways, I played fairly tight, fighting back with solid hands but basically floated until 5 players were left, with blinds 150/300 I'm sitting with about 1700 and the chip leader is raising every hand...I'm in the BB with 55 and push all-in on his predicatable raise, he calls showing T6 and my 5's hold up, now I'm sitting in 4th very close to third and chip lead has dropped to 2nd....I fold my SB and then on the button I get TT, uber-raiser is the BB. I make it $1000 to go (my stack I think was around 3500) and he re-raises me all-in.
The rest of the players were tight, if I win the hand I'm chip lead, he's crippled and with a player already sitting around $600 in chips in 5th place I easily money...if I fold I'm left 4th out of 5 with $2500 with the blinds going up in the next hand I'm in the red basically waiting to push on any two cards.
Can you fold here or is it an easy call?
Comments
The uber-raiser has to pick up a hand sometime. You have been playing tight and showed 44 last time. If you think this maniac is watching you at all what does he think you are making it $1000 with? If you think he is smart enough to be labelling your raise as a position raise, then I'd bet he is smart enough to realize you are playing solid poker. If you think he is a total reckless donk then as sloth said, I'm in there in a heartbeat. Agsinst any half decent player who has been watching your play AT ALL, I'd assume you either ahead 4.5-1 or behind 4.5-1.
The 600 stack in the mix is irrelevant I think as you can't expect to see better than TT in the next two hands befor eyou are paying blinds again.
So, not being at the table, and if the guy is as nuts as you say, I'm in. I have ran into the one time a bully wakes up a hand too many times to phil hellmuth my chips into the pot here though.
I agree. Force his hand with an All-IN.
So did the villian have a hand, or did he go Brokeback Mountain on you?
Just curious if you believe you can outplay the rest of the table do you avoid a fight with a seemingly crazy player that can knock you out hoping to make the money then battle? I don't think I have the ability or the time to do that here, I'll take it prison style as Greg says with TT every time.
I agree that pushing is best.. your 3500 with blinds at 150-300 means you have an M of about 8 - a range that is dangerous because you can easily go broke when you don't necessarily "have to".
Add the guy to your favorites, and win the next 50/50 ..
Mark
If you're looking for a chance to play... something I'll occassionally do in these situations with big hands is limp and then insta-push the probable bet from him.(granted 1010 may be a little weak for this play)
You've bruised this guys ego and the former 'table bully' would usually be hesitant to lose to you again since you've just dealt him an effective bitch-slap. He can/will shove alot of hands to your raise in a retribution/desperate attempt to take back the table and chips..but he's only calling your insta-shove with premium hands.
If he folds you've got more money in the pot, if he calls he was going to anyway (because his hand merits it)
not a play I use often, but its an option.
Not with the stack that you currently have. If you had say 5000 or so (M = 10+), then yes, you can try to avoid a big confrontation with the player who can knock you out if you feel you can outplay the rest of the table. But with your M being at 8, you can't afford to wait too long and pick your spots. Get your hands and shove.
This read is a start but you should have more:
What do you think his range for raising pre-flop is? Any 2 cards?
Does he raise everytime he faces an unopened pot?
Does he call re-raises or does he fold to them?
At some tables once it is shorthanded it can be profitable to raise every unopened pot with any two cards. If you raise 3XBB and only get action 1-4 times it IS profitable!
There is nothing wrong with your all-in call against this guy. He could have 10-6 for all we know right? Your medium pair is probably best right now correct? How about post flop if you get called? Will you throw it away if an over card comes on the flop?
You have already committed 30% of your stack and are getting 2-1 on your money. ($450 in blinds + $1000 your raise + $1000 his call of your raise + his raise to you of $2500 = $4950 in the pot and $2500 to you to call)
The only time this call is mathmatically incorrect is if you believe you face an overpair and you can't put this maniac on a hand like that with any regularity.
The problem in my opinion was your $1000 raise. The ONLY way to play a medium pair in this situation is to get all of your chips with a raise when the action first get to you and the pot is unopened or just stay out of the way until you are ITM.
If one guy had $600 and the maniac is is splashing around in every pot your best course of action may even be to stay the hell out of the way. You will most likely hit the money without even playing another pot.
There is some great info out there about late inning play in sit-n-gos. Scott Fishman has written some amazing articles on it and Harrington covers it too.
Late in a SNG is like being on the bubble in a satellite. Don't pick a fight with anyone who can break you!
How about this example:
SNG - Top 3 Pay
Blinds are $200T-$400T
You are Button ($4500T)
Seat 2 is SB ($200T)
Seat 3 is BB ($400T)
Seat 4 is CO ($4600T)
Seat 2 posts $200
Seat 3 posts $400
Seat 4 is all in $4600
You have KsKc
Should you call here?
are you joking
I'd play it . After all, it's impossible for all 3 of my opponents to have pocket aces. So even if the chip leader had aces, the likelyhood of another having pocket aces is VERY small, and we all get busted out in the same hand. Otherwise, there is a good chance of becoming a VERY dominant chip leader and taking it all.
I understand the point you're trying to make here, as far as making the money folding may guarantee it but given the situation above the CO could and likely should make this move with any two cards. Although if the CO just called you could use a cooperation play to hopefully eliminate both blinds so that may help put the CO on at last a semi-decent holding. I just don't think I have the skill to dump KK here? With 4 players left a decent holding still includes a lot of hands weaker then KK...I'm calling and I think I'm calling with QQ as well....now drop it down to JJ or less and I likely pass?
This situation I described is not really good because both blinds are already all in and I have a bigger stack so would have to lose to both of them in order to finish out of the money.
You would have to add at least $1 to each of their stacks so that they could fold and still be alive.
The point is this...in satellite tourneys sometimes it make sense to fold AA pre-flop. The bubble in SNG's closely resembles satelite play.
Don't believe me? I think everyone on this board would agree that this guy is no fool. http://www.pokerhand.org/?594157
Now I agree in a low limit SNG I would probably roll the dise on my KK here because his massive overbet reeks of a weaker holding and I can basically win it with this one hand. But what if the payout was this:
1st $1,000,000.00
2nd $375,000.00
3rd $200,0000.00
4th $0
How about now?
Insta-call. The bubble in satellite situations does NOT resemble the bubble in SNG situations (especially the one presented). There is a much bigger reward for finishing 1st.
If you call, you're almost always ahead of the big stack. The micro stacks don't even matter. Let's figure WORST case that the big stack DOES knock you out. Big deal. You likely have 2nd locked up in that case (assuming he knocks out the short stacks). And if you beat big stack (regardless of who wins the main pot) you're in prime position to win the whole thing. Easy, easy, call. Now if you change the payout structure to that of a satellite, then sure, it makes sense not to get involved.
Even more reason to call. Very good chance of me having the best hand, as only one player has opted to go all in (the other two are forced), so with that kind of chance of doubling up and taking first, I look at the blinds being all-in, and as Dave says "sprain my wrists" clicking the call button.
The situation I presented does not have a real RIGHT answer. I put it out there to get some input on what your thought process would be in this situation. I was hoping for something more than, "I have kings I push here everytime."
In reality there is absolutely no need for the CO to push here but he did. I would bet $4600 into a $600 pot here with one of two hands AA or KK. Why would I over bet here? Because almost every low limit SNG player would decide I was trying to make a move here. I would get lots of calls from strong Aces and big pairs.
Without AA or KK. I would opt for a co-operation play.
Congratulations. You are either hopelessly dominated or at best a split pot!
BTW Scooby -- The comparison of bubble play in SNG's to satellites is not my idea! Some donkey named Dan Harrington came up with that one.
Caddy
I'm not offended, I just think you're wrong.
I don't think I just said "easy push". I tried to qualify it by saying the upside of calling and (often) beating the big stack to have a huge opportunity to win first here is paramount. And as far as the downside "risk" it's not as bad as it seems, because to bubble here (which is the big downside) we would need the shortest stack to win the main pot, the 2nd shortest stack to win his side pot, and ALSO lose to the big stack on top of that. I consider this probabity of being HIGHLY remote.
Agreed that the overbet is odd. I don't think that that necessarily means that the AVERAGE player's range here will be AA and KK. Some players will push smaller pairs, some will push AK. I certainly think KK matches up well versus a real RANGE of hands that the big stack might push here. Is it possible he's only overbetting AA here? Yes. Do I think that is his "likely" range. No.
As such, this:
is wrong. Anybody can justify certain moves based on their reads and assumptions, but trying to narrow down those reads to "likely" scenarios is what poker is all about. I don't think a range of {AA, KK} here is likely.
I may have to reread HOH then to see where Harringto would specifically advise dumping KK here. Certainly there are elements of SNG bubble play and satellites that are somewhat similar, but trying to OVER-simplify certain situations can lead you astray pretty quickly in this game.
Fair enough, such is life with a game of incomplete information, but some answers are going to be MORE right than others. Keep it coming...I'm always eager to argue (in the sake of a good discussion)...
I missed this post. And yes IMO, this vastly changes the situation from the original situation (since there is a tangible downside risk of bubbling).
I again apologize here for the quality of my scenario. A few posts back I qualified that if you put $1 more in each of the blinds stacks they could theoretically fold and still live for one more hand. In this case you need to beat the CO or you bubble for $0.
I wrote that I would overbet AA or KK in this situation because I would get alot of calls from weaker holdings who would put me on a steal. I would do a co-operation play with virtually any 2 cards. I never gave the villian any description but agree that you can't give him that narrow of a range.
LOL...I didn't oversimplify. I just asked a question.
Great response Scooby thank you.
Big ups to Big E as well for asking a great question to start this thread.
Caddy
I like your style!
BTW -- I am not wearing my glasses but under your name does it say "Fully Engorged Member?"