Three hands for analysis.
Any comments much appreciated. NL tournament.
Hand #1:
I'm on the button with J:diamond: J
. It is the first hand of the... I mean 'a' tournament. Blinds 10/20, I have 1500 like everyone else.
UTG calls 20
UTG +1 raises 20
MP calls 40
folded to me, I make it 100
BB, UTG, and UTG +1 all call. 4 of us to the flop:
5:diamond: 8:diamond: 4:diamond:
Checked to UTG +1 who moves in. Everyone folds.
Hand #2:
Same level, 10/20, I'm SB with 1380 and Q:club: Q:diamond: .
Folded to MP (920 in chips) who raises it to 60.
Folded to me, and I make it 200. MP calls. Heads-up to the flop:
A 7 T
I bet half of his stack--360--into a 420 pot. I figure the only way he can call is if he's beating me. He calls.
Turn: 8 I check, he moves in for 360, and I fold.
Hand #3:
Blinds 50/100. I am shortstacked with 1120, and in MP with A:club: T:club: . Folded to me, I triple the blinds to 300, only BB calls. Headsup to the flop:
7:club: Q:diamond: T:diamond:
BB checks, I bet 400--almost half my stack--and BB raises 500 to put me all-in for my last 420. As I am getting ready to fold, and try and come back from 420, BB says: "You call it's over". As a rule I don't let any sort of talk influence my decisions, so I stuck to my plan, and folded. Busted out the next hand when I moved in preflop with 44, got called by AQ, lost the coin flip.
Any suggestions on how I could have played these hands better would be appreciated. I suspect I couldn't have played them worse...
Regards,
all_aces
Hand #1:
I'm on the button with J:diamond: J
. It is the first hand of the... I mean 'a' tournament. Blinds 10/20, I have 1500 like everyone else.UTG calls 20
UTG +1 raises 20
MP calls 40
folded to me, I make it 100
BB, UTG, and UTG +1 all call. 4 of us to the flop:
5:diamond: 8:diamond: 4:diamond:
Checked to UTG +1 who moves in. Everyone folds.
Hand #2:
Same level, 10/20, I'm SB with 1380 and Q:club: Q:diamond: .
Folded to MP (920 in chips) who raises it to 60.
Folded to me, and I make it 200. MP calls. Heads-up to the flop:
A
7 TI bet half of his stack--360--into a 420 pot. I figure the only way he can call is if he's beating me. He calls.
Turn: 8
I check, he moves in for 360, and I fold.Hand #3:
Blinds 50/100. I am shortstacked with 1120, and in MP with A:club: T:club: . Folded to me, I triple the blinds to 300, only BB calls. Headsup to the flop:
7:club: Q:diamond: T:diamond:
BB checks, I bet 400--almost half my stack--and BB raises 500 to put me all-in for my last 420. As I am getting ready to fold, and try and come back from 420, BB says: "You call it's over". As a rule I don't let any sort of talk influence my decisions, so I stuck to my plan, and folded. Busted out the next hand when I moved in preflop with 44, got called by AQ, lost the coin flip.
Any suggestions on how I could have played these hands better would be appreciated. I suspect I couldn't have played them worse...
Regards,
all_aces
Comments
Hand 2 is my nemesis, I hate hate hate hate QQ, everytime I get dealt the stupid thing and try and get some callers there is always an A or K in the flop, every time. I've taken to just moving all in with it and if someone has AA or KK that's just my bad luck and if they don't they made the bad call not me and my string of bad luck with the stupid hand has to end sometime
Hand 3 is where I would have played less aggressively, The pot already has a decent chunk of money in it and he called a large bet preflop so he is most likely on a pocket pair or something big and suited, with 2nd pair and only 1 card of my suit I'd have taken the free card in hopes of catching an A,T or another club.
But I've never been featured on the cover of any magazines so what do I know
betting 250-300 on 10/20 blinds is like 12-15xmin, which is a BIG overbet, and he would only be called if someone has Aces or Kings or Queens, 100 is a good size bet. It may not scare everyone off, but you will be getting good money for them to call.
Hand 2, exactly as I pointed out before, if you move all in with QQ with a pretty big stack (50xmin, BB = 20, and he had 1000 ish chips), then he will again only be called by a better hand, KK AA and possibly AK.
Hand 3, He was heads up, the pot is already 750, and he has mid pair HU, hes probabaly only losing to a Queen, (KK or AA - which would have been reraised pf). If he played this hand less agressive, Ie bet min, or 200 (which is a bet smaller than his pf bet, it makes him look even weak and sets himself up to lose the pot to a checkraise), but a 400 bet was a good feeler bet, and the checkraise made him lay it down.
Just my opinion, I would have also played Hands 1 and 2 the same way (fold on flop to all in, and fold to all in on turn). The 3rd hand would be the only hand I could consider him bluffing or making a move, but if I had some chips (5xBB as you said), I uguess I would fold as well and wait for a better play.
I still hate the Queens. Do like I would generally do and shove all in and you risk that KK or AA is out there (of course this will only be the case one out of ever 100 times or so), A K would suck too but that will only win 1 out of 3 of these showdowns) limp in see the A hit and then have to fold to a bet or a check raise...For only 3.5X his original raise the raiser will probabbly stick around with almost anything playable, I say that you should make him make a decision for a healthy chunk of his stack right then and hope that he has something like JJ or TT and will call.
Hand 3 the preflop call tells you he is sitting on something (my guess is that it was 77 or TT and he flopped a set and wanted the checkraise), he would have been forced to bet on the turn and all_aces could have gotten out of the hand then without giving up anymore of his stack if he didn't improve his hand, and if a miracle card like another T came off than the weakness shown on the flop would have acctually been in aces favour and probabbly allowed him to double up.
Re-raising it to 100 from 40 is either too much or not enough.
Hand 2: I like the size of your pre-flop raise much better here. A nice play betting the flop. I might have bet a little less, around 200. It's an easy shut down & fold when your flop bet gets called, particularly when the flush draw gets there.
Hand 3: I think I would have called the final bet, and knowing this, would have pushed all-in on the flop immediately. There's a good enough chance that your hand is good to play here with a smallish stack. I think you've got to go ahead and take a shot here.
If you have the feeling that you may want to get away from the hand even catching a decent piece of that flop, bet ~200. This bet is enough to get your opponent to fold trash, but leaves you with some more chips if you really plan on folding to a check-raise or large turn bet (assuming you don't improve).
Taking a free turn card is not out of the question here either.
I was very surprised to find out your hand was as good as it was after you had folded for the last 420. I put you on a busted A-high after you folded.
On the surface, the chat appears to not want a call. However, my experience is that 90%+ of players who chat at all when you go into the tank, whatever the chat is exactly, *do* want a call. Most often this is because you going into the tank means to them that their hand is good. You're in a pickle here if you're trying to get a read from the chat.
I agree 100% with your "I'm not letting the chatter influence my play" line of thinking and playing.
ScottyZ
Not so. Making it 210 to go is a full-sized pot-limit bet. Something in the 250-300 range would be a good strong bet, but not an outragous overbet.
ScottyZ
Here are some conclusions I've drawn from the responses so far:
Hand #1: I should have just called, or made it 200 or so instead of 100. A raise of 60 isn't going to get a lot of hands out. I have a bit of a problem in 'friendly' tournaments... I'm thinking: first hand, we're all friends here, don't want to cripple anyone right off the bat... and it ends up costing me chips.
Hand #2: I'm not a fan of moving in preflop with much of anything, unless I have to because I'm shortstacked, or my opponent(s) is/are shortstacked, or the pot has already been raised and (perhaps) re-raised to the point where moving in pre-flop is reasonable, and +EV for me. With that in mind, I think that of the three hands I played this one the best, and probably won't change my play if I'm in this situation again. It was disheartening to see another terrible flop for my pocket pair, though... :frown:
Hand #3: I had a very awkward stack size (right inside the 10X BB area), and that means that a lot of care must be taken with every hand I play. This discussion has brought that *very* strongly to the front of my mind, and it'll stick there I think. A 10XBB stack is either going to take off or bust out, very generally speaking, so it's best to think a *lot* about what you're going to do with a hand before you play it. Taking medium-sized stabs at a pot can cripple you. Moving in at the wrong time will bust you. 10XBB=awkward=caution.
At any rate, after reading the responses I think I should have pushed on the flop or taken a free card. 400 is a great bet if I have the chips left to make a bet like that and fold, but I didn't. I'm used to having them
Thanks again,
all_aces
I know what you are thinking - the big bet means they hit their flush already. Maybe - but if its the nut flush or close to it, why scare everyone away? Which leads to another possibility - they hit the flush, but it's vulnerable to a higher flush if another diamond comes.....however I think this is unlikely also given the betting. Therefore I think AA played this correctly - folded when he was likely behind. I myself hate Jacks unless I'm short and need to push all in pre-flop.
Hand 2 - again the flop hurt you. You were probably up against 2 face cards, one of them a heart. When the turn came a heart, you had to muck it.
Hand 3 - enjoyed everyones analysis on this one, but I think you are all forgetting a couple of very important factors here. ONE - this is a *friendly* tournament - its quite possible that the CHAT was not intended to either induce a call or a fold but rather just part of the good-natured banter that goes along with such a game. In other words - you did the right thing by ignoring the chatter - guessing the motivation would be just that - a guess - a coin flip - for your remaining chips.
Another intangible is the relative player stacks and the positions of the players in the hand. I happen to recall this hand also and remember that the BigBlind had a large stack. Perhaps he perceived the raise as a BLIND STEAL? We all know that Scotty wouldn't dare steal for the minimum...perhaps AllAces wouldn't either? Especially if he was shortstacked and needed some chips. Hey, this guys on a magazine cover - he's good! IF the BB had a hand worthy of defending and had the chips to do so and wanted to send a message that his blinds weren't easily stolen, calling AA's raise wouldn't be a bad place to start.......
Then the flop comes and sort of hits All Aces but certainly leaves open the possibility of him trailing the hand. First - he's losing to any Q. Second, he's losing to K K or A A (both extremely possible, given that the BB would have no reason to have raised All_Aces preflop - it would have let All_Aces fold. Slow playing a large pair would increase the chances of busting All_Aces given his stack. He's beating A K but that leaves the Big Button a gutshot straight draw and (as far as BB knows) 6 outs to the top pair. And of course the button could have a four flush with 2 cards to come. In my opinion, All_Aces should have taken the freebie on the turn and reassessed. Given the checkraise, All_aces made the right play - he mucked middle pair and lived to play another hand. Sadly it was just ONE other hand! BUt I don't see how All-Aces could have called the checkraise. I agree with Scotty - maybe betting just 200 would have been better than 400. Would it have changed the play by the BigBlind? Who knows, but it might have saved 200 and made for an easier laydown.
Just my thoughts...would welcome feedback.
Hand 1: I put my opponent on exactly pocket fives, eights or fours after his all-in flop bet, giving him trips. Any of these three hands could have possibly raised the minimum preflop (although that's not how I would play them). A hand that moves in on the flop like that is strong enough to handle most types of hands if called, but vulnerable enough--given the board--that he wants to end it then and there. IMO, flopping a set in that case is one such hand. I could have called and hoped for a diamond, as well as hoped that the board didn't pair, but as you say, that's not a great play.
Also, there's a remote chance that he raised the min. preflop with a hand like A:diamond: J:club: , and moved in with a draw to the ace-high flush, knowing that really, no hand will call him unless it's a made flush, maybe trips, maybe a straight, or a hand containing the A:diamond: which is impossible since he's holding it. If that's the case, good for him.
Hand 2: As you said, I had to check and fold the turn. What an ugly ugly flop.
Hand 3: Well... I didn't raise the minimum preflop, I tripled the blinds. But close enough. Checking behind on the flop is certainly an option I'll consider next time I'm in this situation; why bet if you'll absolutely *hate* a check-raise? Unless of course you're bluffing, but I wasn't. NL poker 101: unless you're bluffing, don't bet if you can't handle a raise. Should have remembered that, and didn't... like I said, basically I wasn't thinking ahead to what I'd do if I was check-raised, and it caught me by surprise.
And saddened me.
BTW NurseHoliday, IIRC, weren't you my opponent in this hand?
Regards,
all_aces
Nuh-uh. Tripling the blinds is quite a bit better than doubling them since you're putting so much more monetary pressure on the BB than raising only one more BB.
LOL
Translation:
pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease tell me what you had.
ScottyZ
And what I meant was - previous threads have said you shouldn't steal by just raising the minimum - raise by more to scare the blinds off. In this case though, the Big Blind (I'm your huckleberry - yes it was me that was your opponent....kind of hoped that might go unnoticed
As for what I had - I'm going to have to pull up the hand history to be certain - my memory isn't the greatest for hands I win. I will get back to you on that. ( I know - it sounds a lot like *I'm sorry, JOHN, I don't remember*). Lets just say I remember one of the cards exactly, and the suit of the second card but I'm fuzzy on the rank of the second card.
But given the above analysis, I likely would have called even if All_aces went all in after the flop - the opportunity to bust out one of the stronger players and thereby improve my chances of winning was very tempting.
I guess what I'm saying is, once I saw the flop, I was in until the end. The key would have been to get me out before the flop....which would have meant a bigger raise pre-flop by All_aces. And I'm not sure his hand, or his stack size (though smallish it was by no means a lost cause) warranted such a play at this juncture.
I've never requested a tournament/hand history before - allow me some time to do so and I will repost the details.
IIRC, "IIRC" means "If I Remember Correctly".
ScottyZ
BUT THEY WERE SooooTED!? :frown:
And in hindsight, I wasn't as well-stacked at the time as I thougth...my leap into the top 3 or 4 stacks must have come a little later (no doubt helped in large part by All_aces contribution on this hand).
So, pencil me into one of 2 boxes - 1) I made a poor call and aces deserved a better fate or 2) I made a bold move and aces wasn't in a position to call my bluff. You decide. I'm going to work on my memory.
Oh, my head.
Right read, wrong player I guess. :cool:
Way to put him into his misery.
ScottyZ
AT is funny. I feel almost guilty playing it.
Another good spot for the check-raise flop bluff is when the flop is low cards and you called a raise from the blinds. Or, one time this week I raised preflop from EP with AQ, got a caller, the flop came J73. I checkraised that one, figuring that he'd missed it, and would put me on AJ and maybe lay down a medium pair, or better, because raising preflop and then check-raising the flop looks like you're trying to maximize a huge hand.
As I said, nice hand, and thanks for sharing...
Regards,
all_aces