Helping on line
Without getting into the whole Cole/HG thing I think a valid point was made. That is the ethics of helping someone on line.
I will give my personal opinion on this. I do not see anything wrong with some coaching going on. This is far different than 2 players colluding and exchanging hole cards etc. Sometimes I wish I had someone to talk to when playing the bigger tourneys.
I have and will help Aimee when she's playing on line. Outline reasons why she should push/call/fold in the instance based on chip counts, position, action before her etc. Since very rarely we even play on the same sites (exeption being the forum free roll we both have played) I don't see this as being a problem.
There are poker coaches who for a fee will come and watch you play send comments via yahoo or msn for a fee. They will also review hand histories etc during off play times and comment.
I'm sure this is no different than playing poker and having Phil Ivey or Daniel N. look over your shoulder and comment on your play. Granted live that cannot happen in a tournament but if you think it's not happening on line then I guess you shouldn't play.
I'm sure there are lots of university kids with 7 in the apartment cheering./coaching/offering advise during large tourney's.
I am interested in hearing others opinions on this. Please keep the flames to other threads, I do want this to be a serious discussion.
I will give my personal opinion on this. I do not see anything wrong with some coaching going on. This is far different than 2 players colluding and exchanging hole cards etc. Sometimes I wish I had someone to talk to when playing the bigger tourneys.
I have and will help Aimee when she's playing on line. Outline reasons why she should push/call/fold in the instance based on chip counts, position, action before her etc. Since very rarely we even play on the same sites (exeption being the forum free roll we both have played) I don't see this as being a problem.
There are poker coaches who for a fee will come and watch you play send comments via yahoo or msn for a fee. They will also review hand histories etc during off play times and comment.
I'm sure this is no different than playing poker and having Phil Ivey or Daniel N. look over your shoulder and comment on your play. Granted live that cannot happen in a tournament but if you think it's not happening on line then I guess you shouldn't play.
I'm sure there are lots of university kids with 7 in the apartment cheering./coaching/offering advise during large tourney's.
I am interested in hearing others opinions on this. Please keep the flames to other threads, I do want this to be a serious discussion.
Comments
Scared the living s#it outta me... that guy is crazy
Mark
I still have a lot to learn, as I'm sure most of us do, I find I excel at limit poker but love NL tournaments but I'm not great so if I find myself online and deep in a tourney I certainly will check MSN to see who's on and who's brain I can tap at the time. Any help you can get I think is important as long you're focused together on one hand and not working together to take advantage of a table through collusion.
In all honesty even if I was playing live and multiple people were playing 1 hand I could care less. The key is 1 player playing 1 hand with some 'coaching', as long as there is no collusion between multiple 'players' I think it's ok to 'coach' someone. To be the best you have to beat the best, and if that's 1 player being coached by multiple players, well then, bring it on, I want the challenge!
To me I guess it's really a question of whether somebody is giving you advice or telling you what to do. Jenn and I often ask each other for advice online (when we're not at the same table), and I can see the benefits of it, and don't really see a problem with it. However, I think having somebody tell you what to do would be wrong, since this would be the same as swapping in a different player, which is obviously not ok.
I'm wondering if the ethics of online is different than live? As a very recent/personal example, when Jason got down to 4 players at the recent Cook Crew event, it was obvious that the chip-leader attacked him constantly. His cautiousness and lack of experience cost him from making the money. Jenn and I were both dealing (not playing), and we both could have offered him some useful advice. However, we didn't think this would be ethical, since he had to play his own game.
I've talked to a number of the regulars about this and they all concur that it wouldn't have been ethical to tell him what he needed to do (not a specific hand, but an overall strategy). Since this seems to be accepted/normal online, would it have been ok to give him advice between hands, or is live a different beast?
Using beanie's example with Jason, If you had been watching his game and told him some advice along the lines of "Be more aggressive and don't let yourself be pushed around" and then point out where he was getting taken advantage of, which is what I'm assuming would be the advice since I wasn't there. However, had there been a break at some point, and you took him aside and said something, would that be unethical? I don't believe so.
It's kinda funny how the timing of a thing can make the difference between cheating and coaching. I believe most would agree that someone saying soemthing during a break is not a big deal, but in-game is a no-no. Essentially, the online thing is similar? At least that's my gut feeling.
Does anyone else find themselves thinking along these lines?
Mark
However I have personally 'coached' three players online (two of whom were even in the room with me and I was seeing the hole cards as I gave advice) and have been 'coached' on a hand for hand basis once..and my gut did not object to this.
I have trouble believing that I'm the only person who has done this, I also fail to see it as 'unethical'. I think this is one of those rare instances where the two types of poker (online and live) are different animals and adjustments in morality are made.
in the middle of a hand this is a big no-no - except on celebrity poker (ugh!)
i have no issue with that during a break or whenever a player is not involved in a hand and wants to step away from the table to strategize with a buddy or coach. this happens all the time in wpt or wsop events. (see jamie gold)
In your case, I would have taken Jason aside during a break or when out of the hand and hilight what you should think should happen, be more aggressive, raise more etc.
On line this obviously can happen during a hand. I have done it and do it with Aimee, with examples you should have just called, you should have raised more you should have just pushed (in telling her this is what I would do).
Back to the live/on line play what about when someone makes a move at the table say pushes and the other players goat someone into calling etc. Example "You've got the chip lead you gotta call that with any 2." I"ve seen it at tourneys etc. I personally believe every player should make there own decisions but where is the line drawn?
Certainly when not at the tables to discuss a strategy to play a tourney/someone/a hand etc is no different than what we share here every day.
Poker 101 - The ethics to continue.
When I started thinking about this more after the tourney, my mind has waffled back and forth on this (which is why I talked to a few people). Actually, now that you mention WSOP, this "sweating" and coaching (out of hands) is fairly normal, so I was probably over-complicating things. Next time, I guess...
might even be fair to do the same for anyone you might term a 'newbie'
I will draw you a picture of where the same action has different ramifications in different contexts, I hope this will illuminate my idea that online play and live play are 'different animals'
1)"Stealing" a bar of soap from your hotel room.
2)Stealing a bar of soap from a drugstore.
1)Taking a live exam=closed book with a mod watching
2)Taking an exam for an online course=open book, more difficult questions.
1)Playing who wants to be a millionaire on TV with a 'phone a friend' option
2)Playing a home version where that would be a time waster. (and a nuisance)
Its not an issue of black or white- its an issue of apples and oranges. To compare the two in this respect is imo not reasonable, and this is a fine instance in which the two similar games have different ethical standards. To coach online is not wrong, its an allowable option, akin to someone who uses an odds calculator.
I'm specifically addressing the idea that you might be helped personally by a 'coach' and the ethics therein
Hopefully this whole thread may get people to look at their game a little more analytical. Now cash games are a whole different animal.....LOL
in a case where someone is learning anything, i think it is highly effective to step aside at a logical breakpoint to review. as long as you aren't disrupting the game i see no harm in this.
rules are rule to be sure. depending on the game, some rules are enforced less strictly. the key is to be sure this is clear up front.
We all make mistakes sometimes. As long as each mistake we make is a new one, we are learning.
1) In on-line play I help my brother-in-law out all the time and he does the same for me. Just this weekend we travelled together and played online taking turns. Once in a while we would talk through a hand together. I don't view this as wrong.
2) Live games. I think when dealing with live games there is a lot more into the play and reads and what not. Also more could be gained by having two people working together in a live game. Online what you see is what you get, in a live game there is a lot to see and a lot can be missed (tells and other things). So in a live game? No helping shouldn't be permitted.
3) The Jason issue. Helping him between hands...not an issue. Helping during a hand would be wrong. The opponent would not be playing Jason, he would be playing you or Jenn who have A) vast more experience and
I have taught my daughter who is not terribly older than Jason to play. And that is a whole different issue. It's a card game. No different than crazy 8's or anything else if taught right. The whole money issue really F's things up.
It's not a question of ethics. It's a question of the sites not being able to stop it. Therefore, sites have come out and stated that it's not against their rules. If it's within the rules, do it!
I know people who even have gone so far as to have "Final Table Phone Trees" for when they make FTs online. I don't go this far but people are doing it.
Ryan
Ryan
I don't trust families that don't play poker
About the sharing hole cards/chatting with others at the table and goading people into calling, folding or calling out guesses at hands you're not involved in, I agree, live, or online, it's wrong and should not be done, even at friendly games.
One of the reasons I like pokerstars is that they do block all chat when a player is all in.
sstar
Just thought I would add this to the discussion. For what it is worth I though it was wrong what the guy was doing. Having said that, I found myself in a big tournament last Wednesday with 10K on the line for first place. After a hand I would go to my supporters, the would encourage me that I made the right play, this guy appears weak, to be honest I don’t know what else we talked about in the brief 10seconds in between hands.
Prophet :2h :2s
Me: Blinds are 6000/12000 I have Q9o UTG
SOS: Fold
Me: Raise 4x BB
SOS: OMG WTF are you doing!!??
Me: Everyone folded :-)
He was there more for support and a calming voice more than anything. I was extremely excited and the heart was racing, (not a good thing for me at that time) he did his best to keep me grounded and play solid poker. He stayed on the phone with me for a few hours at least, I don't think I would have won if not for his support.
I don't think there was anything morally or ethically wrong with that. It wasn't like he was playing for me, that would be unethical.