How did I play these (3) hands? 2/5 Brantford
Howdy, these are three hands in particular I would like to have you guys review/evalulate in an attempt to improve against this particular type of loose play.
Some background - As soon as I walked to my table I received several comments regarding the craziness and insanity of the table. The very first hand I witnessed 7 of the players called a reraise preflop. The table was extremely loose and...well insane. I was a little perplexed at how almost every single player found value in their hand...oh well, this eventually slowed down when one player busted and people calmed down (2 hours in).
Anyways, after playing a few hands I managed to double up from 100 to 200 (pocket jacks held up and hit with an ace queen).
I doubt most of the table acknowledged table image, but I think, if anything, my original impression I gave would be weak tight (I believe this because after having trouble isolating players due to the looseness I became afraid of raising later streets with so many callers)
Then these three hands ocurred that interested me
Hand 1:
I was dealth (K,K) - suits don't matter UTG + 1
I raise, no reraises, 4 callers
- 1 Caller was a woman that played fairly tight passive in SB
- 3 Callers were Loose passive, one was a middle aged man who loved to see the river, other two just see if they hit or fold, two in later positions, 1 of the hit/fold was sb
Flop: 10d, 4c, 10s unsuited
Check, Check, I bet, late position calls, 2 fold (folds were from 2 of the loose passive, 1 late, 1 sb)
Here I was worried that a set was hit, especially from the loose passive who might have called with Ace/10 to 10/9 suited, people loved their suited connectors regardless of position
Turn: Qc - Check, I bet, Late calls, SB Reraises, I call, Late folds
Now, this is the problem, i'm getting about 9:1 to a 20:1 chance to hit if the villain does have the set -so terrible odds - many variables that went into this that left me confused, i'll review this more later
River: 2h - Bet, Call
Hand 2:
I was dealth (Ks,Kc) - CO
3 Callers, I raise, SB Folds, BB Calls, 3 original callers..call
-3 of these callers were Loose/Passive, 1 was Loose/Aggressive (He was more along the lines of a maniac)
- I was the last one to act
Flop: 5, 7, 8 all diamonds
Check, Check, Check, Loose/Agro Bets, I reraise, Everyone folds except for the Loose/Agro whom calls
I paid close attention to the loose/agro as he played and noticed he played many connected hands, as well as, completely random hands
Turn: 4s
Loose/Agro bets, I fold
I felt he had any combination of hands but most strongly felt he hit his set or hit two pair - he limped preflop = hoping to hit with two random cards/low connectors/low pocket pair, he bet the flop then called a reraise = hit middle or bottom pair/testing the water/testing low pocket pair then hoping to catch the straight/straight flush, or his set, raised the turn = I think he played this both offensively and defensively, raised to test the possiblity of the flush and affirming the strength of his two/pair or set
Hand 3:
I was dealth (Qh, 7c) on the Button
3 Callers, I raise, SB, BB Folds, original 3 callers call
(2 of the callers are loose passive, 1 was loose agro teen who was on massive tilt after his queens were sucked out on)
Flop: Kc, Qh, 7h
Bet, Call, Raise, I reraise, Call, Call, Call
Yup automatically felt there was someone chasing the flush, felt that the agro had the weak King, and the other loose passive guy either was chasing an ace or held middle/bottom pair with an ace or a face
Turn: 5c
Check, Check, Check, I raise, Call, Call, Call
This just reaffirmed my position
River: Kh - ugh the worst possible card
Raise, Call, Reraise, I fold, Call, Call
Results for hands:
Hand 1 result/review - The weak tight woman held J10o, yup she had her set
This particular hand left me a little confused, after the flop i was wary about the possibility of the set but I was more cocerned about the loose/passive trying to trap me or coming along for the ride "worried about someone with a better set" which strangely enough i had seen displayed multiple times at the table. The weak tight check raise was very strange because I had not seen her attempt it yet, and left me thinking she held a queen or even a four and believed I was holding AK or a hand that completely missed with that strange board. On the other hand I believe the check raise should have sent of alarms in my head that she was indeed trapping me with the set. Regardless, I'll let you guys give me your thoughts.
Hand 2 result: Since the whole hand wasn't played out I can't give you exact results...but the man did flip up one of his cards "4c"
Oh here's a little bit of dialogue
Me: "Kings no good eh"
Old Asian Lady beside me: "You folded Kings??!!!???? omgoooses" (ya I added the last part)
Me: "Ya that board was a little too extreme, I think he had the set"
Some other guy: "Ya there was a possible straight or flush out there"
Old Asian Lady: "You're dumb"
Me: "Thank you"
Hand 3 Results: Both of the loose/passives held K9o but lose out to the loose/agro with 6/10 of hearts
Any comments and review(s), both good and bad (including omfglolroflz you noob) are appreciated...(I lied the omfg stuff isn't really that appreciated)
Some background - As soon as I walked to my table I received several comments regarding the craziness and insanity of the table. The very first hand I witnessed 7 of the players called a reraise preflop. The table was extremely loose and...well insane. I was a little perplexed at how almost every single player found value in their hand...oh well, this eventually slowed down when one player busted and people calmed down (2 hours in).
Anyways, after playing a few hands I managed to double up from 100 to 200 (pocket jacks held up and hit with an ace queen).
I doubt most of the table acknowledged table image, but I think, if anything, my original impression I gave would be weak tight (I believe this because after having trouble isolating players due to the looseness I became afraid of raising later streets with so many callers)
Then these three hands ocurred that interested me
Hand 1:
I was dealth (K,K) - suits don't matter UTG + 1
I raise, no reraises, 4 callers
- 1 Caller was a woman that played fairly tight passive in SB
- 3 Callers were Loose passive, one was a middle aged man who loved to see the river, other two just see if they hit or fold, two in later positions, 1 of the hit/fold was sb
Flop: 10d, 4c, 10s unsuited
Check, Check, I bet, late position calls, 2 fold (folds were from 2 of the loose passive, 1 late, 1 sb)
Here I was worried that a set was hit, especially from the loose passive who might have called with Ace/10 to 10/9 suited, people loved their suited connectors regardless of position
Turn: Qc - Check, I bet, Late calls, SB Reraises, I call, Late folds
Now, this is the problem, i'm getting about 9:1 to a 20:1 chance to hit if the villain does have the set -so terrible odds - many variables that went into this that left me confused, i'll review this more later
River: 2h - Bet, Call
Hand 2:
I was dealth (Ks,Kc) - CO
3 Callers, I raise, SB Folds, BB Calls, 3 original callers..call
-3 of these callers were Loose/Passive, 1 was Loose/Aggressive (He was more along the lines of a maniac)
- I was the last one to act
Flop: 5, 7, 8 all diamonds
Check, Check, Check, Loose/Agro Bets, I reraise, Everyone folds except for the Loose/Agro whom calls
I paid close attention to the loose/agro as he played and noticed he played many connected hands, as well as, completely random hands
Turn: 4s
Loose/Agro bets, I fold
I felt he had any combination of hands but most strongly felt he hit his set or hit two pair - he limped preflop = hoping to hit with two random cards/low connectors/low pocket pair, he bet the flop then called a reraise = hit middle or bottom pair/testing the water/testing low pocket pair then hoping to catch the straight/straight flush, or his set, raised the turn = I think he played this both offensively and defensively, raised to test the possiblity of the flush and affirming the strength of his two/pair or set
Hand 3:
I was dealth (Qh, 7c) on the Button
3 Callers, I raise, SB, BB Folds, original 3 callers call
(2 of the callers are loose passive, 1 was loose agro teen who was on massive tilt after his queens were sucked out on)
Flop: Kc, Qh, 7h
Bet, Call, Raise, I reraise, Call, Call, Call
Yup automatically felt there was someone chasing the flush, felt that the agro had the weak King, and the other loose passive guy either was chasing an ace or held middle/bottom pair with an ace or a face
Turn: 5c
Check, Check, Check, I raise, Call, Call, Call
This just reaffirmed my position
River: Kh - ugh the worst possible card
Raise, Call, Reraise, I fold, Call, Call
Results for hands:
Hand 1 result/review - The weak tight woman held J10o, yup she had her set
This particular hand left me a little confused, after the flop i was wary about the possibility of the set but I was more cocerned about the loose/passive trying to trap me or coming along for the ride "worried about someone with a better set" which strangely enough i had seen displayed multiple times at the table. The weak tight check raise was very strange because I had not seen her attempt it yet, and left me thinking she held a queen or even a four and believed I was holding AK or a hand that completely missed with that strange board. On the other hand I believe the check raise should have sent of alarms in my head that she was indeed trapping me with the set. Regardless, I'll let you guys give me your thoughts.
Hand 2 result: Since the whole hand wasn't played out I can't give you exact results...but the man did flip up one of his cards "4c"
Oh here's a little bit of dialogue
Me: "Kings no good eh"
Old Asian Lady beside me: "You folded Kings??!!!???? omgoooses" (ya I added the last part)
Me: "Ya that board was a little too extreme, I think he had the set"
Some other guy: "Ya there was a possible straight or flush out there"
Old Asian Lady: "You're dumb"
Me: "Thank you"
Hand 3 Results: Both of the loose/passives held K9o but lose out to the loose/agro with 6/10 of hearts
Any comments and review(s), both good and bad (including omfglolroflz you noob) are appreciated...(I lied the omfg stuff isn't really that appreciated)
Comments
Hand #2. Good fold, you were beat by any 6, and 2 diamonds. I don't think you were dumb. Just tight.
Hand #3 Fine.
I tight passive just check raised 2 of you on the turn. This doesn't sound like the type of player that is going to semi bluff a flush draw here, or CR a Q. I'm folding to the check raise here. Without the TP read I'm tempted to call down.
Hand 2: Depends how loose aggro he is. He could be betting a str draw, flush draw, any pair, or overcards here on the flop (depending on how aggressive). The turn donk is more likely 2 pair, but possibly a straight... Pot is small, I don't hate the fold. If the aggro was the type to bluff alot (especially with scare cards), I might be inclined to call down...
Hand 3: Fold preflop.
If you somehow managed to get to the flop, I might be inclined to wait till the turn to raise a safe card (or get away cheaper). Bottom 2 is so vulnerable at the best of times, let alone with a connected and 2 flush board...
Turn: Fine.
River: Easy fold.
With Hand 1 I believe I had a bad read on the lady; I think this hand I should have been able to get away from after the check raise or check call like Scooby said rather then continue betting. I really feel this hand I played terribly.
With Hand 3 I almost feel rather than folding or raising preflop,especially if I had a few more callers, a limp would have been justified with the equity being right, more-so if I was facing weak aces/faces, low pocket pairs, and low connectors.
I can see how a fold would have better preflop in this particular situation though.
This is very much a WSIWG game. What you see is what you get. That being said here's my suggestions:
Hand 1: It's a very timid game for the most part. I know there's a flush draw and a straight draw at the turn. However, given there weren't a ton of draws on the flop and you had callers, I'm going to check the turn. If it's two bets back to me, fold. If it's one bet back to me, I will call and likely call the river, depending on the card. KQ, AQ is a real possibility here.
Hand 2: Just call the flop. Why is the guy betting into you? I can only assume that he wants me to thin the field on an ugly board. I'm not going to help him win the pot here. If he continues betting on the turn I may muck or I may call -- I would have to see his face and actions. Don't announce you have a big pair on the flop.
Hand 3: For the love of god, you should never ever even consider playing Q7o. I will play Qxs if there's five callers in front, but never ever Q7. Want to mix it up, raise a suited connector or small pocket pair.
Cheers
Magi
My reasoning behind reraising the flop was to isolate the one guy betting, I originally figured he was on a draw/pocket pair/or he hit a pair on the flop and knew he would stick around while I built the pot due to the nature of how he previously played weak hands. The other main reason for betting into him was to determine the value of my hand vs. what he had. If the board was less dangerous I would have called his bet and bet/raised the turn.
Hand 3, like you guys said I shouldn't have even played this but, as I hate to admit it - seeing as poker is a game of patience, I was impatient and had decided to take a shot. (The past hour and a half I was getting hands like 9/4o, 8/3o, and 2/5o) Like I said, if there was one more caller the equity would have been around 5:1 which would have made it okay to gamble, but seeing as that was not the case I see that should have been a fold..regardless of my boredom
Magi now i'm curious because I have a feeling i've seen/talked to you...by any chance were you at the BCC two weeks ago on a Saturday...wearing a hat and unshaven? If so, you sat down right beside me at 2/5 (it was table 1 I believe in the far left corner) before you moved to 20/40; if not my apologies.
I don't think he's saying one more caller would make it "okay to gamble". You have a terrible hand that isn't going to play well multiway at all. Just fold it.
And you're right, tilt isn't an excuse to open up your starting hands... A loose table might be (when you have the luxury of position), but there are a VERY few offsuit hands that are going to be worth playing in a game like that. Small pairs and suited connectors and one-gaps though are another story...
If i'm getting 5:1 and getting around 20% equity (against the range of hands I believe I will be up against...I used the help of pokerstove and plugged in some decent/good hands too - AK, AQ, 88..22 - as well) I'm getting the right odds to call. That's what I meant by gamble, if the pot odds and the equity are there I should be willing to call with a large range of hands (not raise, but call) and hope I hit the flop hard. I agreed with the other posters though, this should have been a fold, but where I disagree is not because of the hand but because of the lack of odds.
Edit: Forgot to mention....I love suited connectors at tables like these. I'd like to add I appreciate the help...limit hold em is not my particular game (NLHE, LO8, SCS) and I'm still in need of a lot of improving adjusting to certain table dynamics, play styles, etc.
If you're hoping to hit the flop hard (2 pair or better), are you then limping the button with 72o as well? Because I don't think Q7o is going to have that much more equity than 72o multiway.
Q7o is the "average hand" in holdem. To win (in general), you need to be playing better than average hands (to overcome the rake).
Not sure when you say re-raise. When someone bets, you raise, and he can re-raise you. So, in hand 2 you're not going to get any hands out which are on a draw. At this limit any diamond T or over will call your raise. The only hands you will get out are A2 or KJ, JT with no diamonds. This will only help your opponent. So, no need to raise the flop here.
Two words MUCK IT. Your equity means squat since you don't know what your opponents hold and you will pay off, more often than you will get paid.
[/quote]
Magi now i'm curious because I have a feeling i've seen/talked to you...by any chance were you at the BCC two weeks ago on a Saturday...wearing a hat and unshaven? If so, you sat down right beside me at 2/5 (it was table 1 I believe in the far left corner) before you moved to 20/40; if not my apologies.[/QUOTE]
Yep that's me. Perk of the job is that I don't have to shave and I can look like a welfare bum pissing away his monthly cheque!! I'm usually in my red/black wsop, or mickey mouse or santana hat. Do say hi if you see me, as I like meeting the forum folks.
Cheers
Magi/Lou
Not sure when you say re-raise. When someone bets, you raise, and he can re-raise you. So, in hand 2 you're not going to get any hands out which are on a draw. At this limit any diamond T or over will call your raise. The only hands you will get out are A2 or KJ, JT with no diamonds. This will only help your opponent. So, no need to raise the flop here.
Two words MUCK IT. Your equity means squat since you don't know what your opponents hold and you will pay off, more often than you will get paid.
[/quote]
Magi now i'm curious because I have a feeling i've seen/talked to you...by any chance were you at the BCC two weeks ago on a Saturday...wearing a hat and unshaven? If so, you sat down right beside me at 2/5 (it was table 1 I believe in the far left corner) before you moved to 20/40; if not my apologies.[/QUOTE]
Yep that's me. Perk of the job is that I don't have to shave and I can look like a welfare bum pissing away his monthly cheque!! I'm usually in my red/black wsop, or mickey mouse or santana hat. Do say hi if you see me, as I like meeting the forum folks.
Cheers
Magi/Lou
Ah magi, awesome! I actually remember talking to you when you were fooling around in a 2/5 game few months ago as well.
I appreciate the help..thanks guys, cheers