legality of runnin a poker game in a bar?
Hello
Well as a way to generate some new business on a slow weeknight during the winter, a bar i frequent has asked me if i would like to run a poker night there. Like some of the in-bar tournaments such as red hot or the NPT. The bar however doesn't have anything to give as a prize just yet, such as a free trip or anything.
I was wondering, if we had a buy-in...example $10... and ALL the money from the buy-in went as a prize to the players, is that legal? as the bar isnt making any money from the pot itself. we will NOT keep a portion of the buy-in.
is this legal?
if it is legal, does that change if we say, to play you must also purchase an x dollar amount of food or beverages?
any input you might have woudl help..thanks.
Well as a way to generate some new business on a slow weeknight during the winter, a bar i frequent has asked me if i would like to run a poker night there. Like some of the in-bar tournaments such as red hot or the NPT. The bar however doesn't have anything to give as a prize just yet, such as a free trip or anything.
I was wondering, if we had a buy-in...example $10... and ALL the money from the buy-in went as a prize to the players, is that legal? as the bar isnt making any money from the pot itself. we will NOT keep a portion of the buy-in.
is this legal?
if it is legal, does that change if we say, to play you must also purchase an x dollar amount of food or beverages?
any input you might have woudl help..thanks.
Comments
It would NOT be legal. Since the bar will be selling food and drinks a profit is being made off of the game and therefore illegal.
If you really want to be sure contact the OLG or your local Police.
Not quite. As I understand it, it is perfectly fine for a group of friends to play poker together for money in a home game.
As long as there is no "house advantage" or "rake" by the bar and/or the organizer and as long as they're not charging for use of the tables it's 100% legal, all monies collected for entry must be made available as prizes. Although the bar doesn't charge for having this available to it's customers, common sense would dictate that you would buy something from them...it's just polite.
/g2
From what you're telling me...I dont' see how the cops could do this unless the house is taking a rake or charging an entry fee of some sort. There's no difference between having a poker tourney to bring in customers and having a raffle or draw to bring them in [i.e. buy a certain brand of beer and get a ballot yada yada]. Although completely different things, when you boil them down they're still both events that involve "chance" and although poker is more of a calculated chance, it's essentially the same thing.
And if there is no money involved [IE freeroll] it shouldn't have been a problem unless of course there was some sort of fee to get in. There is at least one website that I know of that offers free tournaments in exchange for points and prizes and they're not getting shut down. Check them out at Pokerkings.ca
“common gaming house”
« maison de jeu »
“common gaming house” means a place that is
(a) kept for gain to which persons resort for the purpose of playing games, or
(b) kept or used for the purpose of playing games
(i) in which a bank is kept by one or more but not all of the players,
(ii) in which all or any portion of the bets on or proceeds from a game is paid, directly or indirectly, to the keeper of the place,
(iii) in which, directly or indirectly, a fee is charged to or paid by the players for the privilege of playing or participating in a game or using gaming equipment, or
(iv) in which the chances of winning are not equally favourable to all persons who play the game, including the person, if any, who conducts the game;[/I]
Exception
(2) A place is not a common gaming house within the meaning of paragraph (a) or subparagraph (b)(ii) or (iii) of the definition “common gaming house” in subsection (1) while it is occupied and used by an incorporated genuine social club or branch thereof, if
(a) the whole or any portion of the bets on or proceeds from games played therein is not directly or indirectly paid to the keeper thereof; and
(b) no fee is charged to persons for the right or privilege of participating in the games played therein other than under the authority of and in accordance with the terms of a licence issued by the Attorney General of the province in which the place is situated or by such other person or authority in the province as may be specified by the Attorney General thereof.
I'm not a lawyer by a long shot, but basically I interperate this as you can gamble legally pretty much anywhere as long as the house/bar or person organizing isn't collecting any type of fee or comission from the people participating. So as long as the place isn't falling under the category of "gambling house" it's ok to hold unlicensed gambling events at it providing all money collected is made available as prizes to be won by the people participating.
Of coure for reasons of CYOA...ask the OLGC or your local police dept...or even the local bylaw people as there may be a bylaw against gambling in your town/municipality
"b) no fee is charged to persons for the right or privilege of participating in the games played therein other than under the authority of and in accordance with the terms of a licence issued by the Attorney General of the province in which the place is situated or by such other person or authority in the province as may be specified by the Attorney General thereof.
"
I think this is the one you have to worry about, the buy in is your fee. Charging no fee, will not consider you a gambling house.
You also have to worry about the "indirectly" statements. Although there is no direct fee to the keeper, they indirectly make money from drinks, food, etc.
I don't think there's anything wrong with freerolls or anything of that sort. Why else would Red HOt Poker tour and other organizations like this, still be running in well known franchises. I think your safest bet is to offer a free dinner or something along those lines. $50 prize for getting 30 or so people in the door is not a bad trade off.
I think a Lawyer would be your best bet, but please post your findings if you do go this route.
International Poker Tour was raided for having an illegal $10 fee. It now has a dealer's tips container instead and badgers the players into tipping the dealer even though there is no cash to be won. A Kingston bar was charged for having unlicensed "charity" tournaments. Other bars have had their liquor license revoked for illegal gambling activity such as football cash pools.
as long as there is no money charged to the players, and
no money is wagered in any way,. If money is exchanged,
it is illegal.
Its not just bars, but any place of gain...a business.
Poker for money at your house is legal, but illegal if
you hold your game at any place of business.
http://www.agco.on.ca/pdf/Non-Forms/LL2006_Vol_6_Issue_1e.pdf
I believe the loophole to this is that as long as an outside person is putting together the event and the owners/managers of the bar in question are not directly involved in the organizing etc. then they can turn a blind eye so this won't fall under any gov't agency..the games in the bar would then fall under the same category as home games and would therefore be legal. And the way laws are written it's very wishy washy..."may be illegal", "may be against the criminal code" etc. Laws like this are written for more high stakes games, ...not the 10 or 20 dollar freezouts most people are involved in.
or if the owner/manager knows that $ is
involved.
If there is a poker game happening
in a bar/business and there is money charged
to the players via fee or rake, or the players
are wagering money amongst themselves,
it is 100% ILLEGAL. Nothing "wishy washy" about.
If you're still not convinced, contact the alcohol & gaming
commission, they will tell you the same thing.