Did I play this hand wrong...
I was playing the Hold-em $20 NL tourney on stars last night. We are down to about 150 players. Average stack is around 3-4K. Blinds are 75/150
I have about 6K+ in chips and I am in the Big Blind. I am dealt 7
9:club:. Not a great hand. Really looking for a big blind special.
The deal folds around to the player in the dealer position he has about 1500 in chips. He make the bet 300. The little blind folds and it will only cost me 150 to call. I decide to take a flop.
Flop comes 5:diamond: 6:club: 5:club:. Not a bad flop for my 79 off-suit. It gives me some extra outs. After some consideration I check. He bets out 600 or 1/2 his stack. I figure with this bet he hasn't made his hand yet, considering his small pre-flop raise, that he is on a A-Paint, Paint-Paint over card draw. I have a runner/runner flush draw, a straight draw, plus if I hit a 7 or 9 I am in the lead. Basically that I have a few more outs to win this hand then he does. I raise him all in, he quickly call and shows JJ (no :club:'s). Of course a 8 :club: hits on the turn and he is drawing dead. I have made my straight.
He is mad and saying that I was a poor player and just lucky. I don't reply and continue to play.
I wanted to reply that he was the one that played that hand poorly, poor pre-flop raise, and post flop bet. After all I wasn't the one with a major chip investment in that pot.
If I was in his situation at that point I would have raised 3-4x the bet just to pick up the blinds. Which while not much it would have added another 225 plus ante to my stack. He would probably have only been called by an Ace Paint/Paint-Paint or small pocket pair but he would have been the favorite in almost any race. By letting the blinds (i.e me) see the flop for cheap he opened himself up to getting his JJ cracked. Even though I put him on the wrong hand I think I played this well
Comments?
P.S. I did make it into the money, and got my All-in AA busted by QT off-suit by the chip leader. It's not really an interesting story, just the conclusion to my tournament that night.
I have about 6K+ in chips and I am in the Big Blind. I am dealt 7
9:club:. Not a great hand. Really looking for a big blind special.The deal folds around to the player in the dealer position he has about 1500 in chips. He make the bet 300. The little blind folds and it will only cost me 150 to call. I decide to take a flop.
Flop comes 5:diamond: 6:club: 5:club:. Not a bad flop for my 79 off-suit. It gives me some extra outs. After some consideration I check. He bets out 600 or 1/2 his stack. I figure with this bet he hasn't made his hand yet, considering his small pre-flop raise, that he is on a A-Paint, Paint-Paint over card draw. I have a runner/runner flush draw, a straight draw, plus if I hit a 7 or 9 I am in the lead. Basically that I have a few more outs to win this hand then he does. I raise him all in, he quickly call and shows JJ (no :club:'s). Of course a 8 :club: hits on the turn and he is drawing dead. I have made my straight.
He is mad and saying that I was a poor player and just lucky. I don't reply and continue to play.
I wanted to reply that he was the one that played that hand poorly, poor pre-flop raise, and post flop bet. After all I wasn't the one with a major chip investment in that pot.
If I was in his situation at that point I would have raised 3-4x the bet just to pick up the blinds. Which while not much it would have added another 225 plus ante to my stack. He would probably have only been called by an Ace Paint/Paint-Paint or small pocket pair but he would have been the favorite in almost any race. By letting the blinds (i.e me) see the flop for cheap he opened himself up to getting his JJ cracked. Even though I put him on the wrong hand I think I played this well
Comments?
P.S. I did make it into the money, and got my All-in AA busted by QT off-suit by the chip leader. It's not really an interesting story, just the conclusion to my tournament that night.
Comments
I'm going to stop reading right here and take a guess. He has a big hand, probably KK or AA. Fold pre-flop.
Okay, I'll go back and look at the rest of it. :cool:
...
I guess I was wrong, but oh so close.
When the 8:club: hits the turn, he's not drawing dead. He's got 4 outs. Indeed, it turns out that his re-draw is just as good as your original draw.
Another way of saying it is that you have 9-high and a gutshot on a paired 2-flush board against an opponent who has shown pre-flop strength.
I'm not saying that just to be a jerk, but rather to try to point out how easy it can be to talk yourself into (or out of) decisions (poker, and otherwise) by looking at things the way you want to. See what's there, not what you want to be there.
NL is generally not a drawing game, even when you think you do have a good draw. That's especially so when the stacks are not deep enough to start thinking about implied odds if you hit your draw. Don't pay through the nose for your draw when your opponent would already be all-in if you actually do end up catching.
I agree that the minimum raise pre-flop is quite poor. As you said, it's much better to make a stadard size raise here. If you're in stealing position with a big hand, why not mimic a steal to disguise your hand? I might even consider moving all-in with the JJ for the whole 1,500 here, hoping to catch one of the blinds in some fancy "it doesn't look like he wants a call" thinking. But making it 450 or 600 to go would make perfect sense too.
However, what's wrong with his flop bet? He's making a strong bet with what he (correctly) thinks is the best hand. He gets all the money in on the flop when he has way the best of it. That's top notch poker if I've ever seen it.
I don't think you played this hand well. (The leap to calling you a "poor player", however, is quite childish.) Why move all those chips into a small pot when you've (correctly) read that you are very likely to be behind in the hand with somewhere between 4-10 outs, and your opponent may very well already feel pot-committed?
The way I see it, your flop raise has almost no fold equity, and your draw isn't +EV even in the best possible (for you) cases for your opponent's hole cards.
Smart move, and this kind of restraint shows a good deal of class. Nice play.
Too bad about busting out with the AA... that's always a tough way to go out.
But most importantly, congrats for making it into the money! Well done. :cool:
ScottyZ
But the pot is only offering you about 1.6 to 1 on the flop. (betting 1200 to win 1875, assuming 0 fold equity)
That makes it a -EV play to chase a 2 to 1 dog.
ScottyZ
I think you played it pretty badly.
I dont think you should be so quick to count your 7 or your 9 as outs. You've got a guy who preflop raises small on the button. So he could have a wide range of hands, but 97o to defend? Yikes. When the flop comes down rags and he tosses in a pot sized bet, some alarms should be going off. While it's true that he can be bluffing, you don't seem to need to be taking this chance at this stage of the tournament.
Lets count those outs:
Runner/Runner Flush: 2 outs
Inside Straight draw: 4 outs
The debatable overcard outs: 5 outs. Thats 11 outs if you think you've got the perfect read on the guy. You've only got 6 if you are wrong.
So you've got somewhere between a 24% and 41% chance of winning the pot. 1500 chips risked in a 35/65 situation isn't exactly what I'm looking for in a tournament.
If I was in your shoes, I would have conceded the blind. 97o is no hand for a blind defense. Losing 150 chips of your 6K stack is no big deal.
His preflop raise was a little weak. After that, I dont find anything wrong with his play. He has JJ, puts in a raise, gets a caller. Flop comes rags, he puts in half his stack hoping you'll call and gets you to move all-in.
If I was in his shoes, I'd be swearing at you too
Oh give me a break. you've got JJ and all you want is 225 chips? I hope you seriously don't play that weak.
You can put lipstick on a pig....
Whew no need to get personal here...
I don't play that weak but I if I was short stacked in that situation (The average stack at that time was 3-4K he had 10x the BB). I would gladly raise 3x-4x the Bet and take the blinds, rather than letting the LB/BB see the flop for cheap and get lucky and lose the 300. Maybe that just me but I would rather bet my hand and win some than risk a flop, and throw away 300.
In tournament play I would rather win 225 (and another free round at the blinds) then lose 300 (or more) to a lucky LB/BB flop. It may not be the way others play but it is the way I do.
Other than that thanks for the evaluation, I am looking for honest feedback not hand holding. It's all about improvement, and learning the plays.
:rolleyes:
I know that I am not a "Great Player", I hold my own and win/lose my fair share of the races. I admit that I in all likely hood played this hand poorly
Yes I did miss read his hand, had I put him on a pocket pair would I have still called. Possibly, I don't know. Every hand is different. Had he raised even 3x to 450 I would have folded, and he would still be in the game, and perhaps beaten me later on. Had he pushed all in after the flop, would I have folded, once again probably. What would he have done if I had just called his 600, and the 3rd club hit, and I bet big. Would he have folded, having only 600 left in his stack. 565 is a scary flop for a hand betting in to the LB/BB especially after a minimum raise. You can never be sure what the LB/BB have. Even more so if they have the chips to take a risk and hope to get lucky on the flop.
I completely agree with this. I think opening on the button for less than 3*BB with JJ is generaly a pretty bad play (unless you're against very weirdly aggressive opponents in the blinds). If you *ever* hope to steal the blinds during the other tournament hands, make a stealing-sized bet when you have a huge hand too.
I'm actually not sure what BBC Z was suggesting as the best play with the JJ here... just calling?
ScottyZ
My comment was geared more towards being happy winning only 225 chips with JJ rather than a suggestion of how to play it.
Here's the line of thinking that I see Mr. JJ going through:
1) Yes, I got a good hand.
2) Oh no, everyone is folding in front of me
3) If I put in a big raise, I'm probably not going to get any action, so I'll min raise it and sucker the SB or the BB along
4) Yes, a caller. C'mon rag flop
5) Yes.. Rag flop, but I still need to string my caller along, maybe my bet'll get a call from someone who made a pair.
6) Yes re-raised me all in.
7) Yes. it's 97o
8) Damn an 8.
Anyway, I dont fault the way he played the JJ at all in his situation the more I think about it. He's trying to create value out of his hand in a situation where the most likely outcome is picking up the blinds. He's shortstacked and he needs to take risks. If he raises 3x BB preflop, he wins the blinds and may never see a hand as good as JJ before he blinds out.
Oops, that was a pretty strongly worded reply.. Hmm..
That statment was geared more towards the way we (or maybe it's just me) think about our poker play even if we land up being completely wrong. We like to lie to ourselves and not accept the fact we made bad plays pure and simple. I've made plenty of lousy calls and rationalized them away.. Did I become any better with that line of thinking? Of course not...
I think I just picked the wrong analogy..
No problem, I get it. This play was bugging me, and I couldn't figure out why. I thought it was a good play (no more thank you), but really wanted it critiqued by the wonderful expert pool here at the forum.
I am the kind of person who has always tried (key word TRIED) to be honest with myself, particularly in this game we call poker. I sat down and set myself hard core limits when I first started playing just so that I would stay honest, and not lose much money.
I have been on a bit of a run the last week or so, and didn't want to get ahead of myself, hence the post. It never hurts to be knocked down a peg, if you have the kind of EGO that can take it (for the most part I do).
Thank to both you and scotty for your expert analysis. And anybody else who cares to contribute.
Just keep the DnkyFkr comments to a minimum.
Just so no-one misconstrues the meaning of that comparison, I generally hate both of those plays.
Stealing blinds is going to be the bread and butter of a short-stack comeback. Yes, I am happy to only pick up the blinds with the JJ, or any two cards 72o through AA. The reality is that it's very rare you'll get any action on your JJ when you are winning from only the blinds no matter how you play it. I'd be happy enough to pick up the blinds now, and make an extra speculative limp-in a few hands later. Winning the cost of one orbit is a nice result just by itself too.
If someone is going to make a stand against me from a blind when I have a real hand, I want to get more than just 1 or 1.5 extra BB's out of them if they're going to take a crack at me. And since I'm never going to raise the minimum on a steal (unless I think you have read this sentence), won't it look funny if I make it 2*BB to go with JJ or better, and later raise it up to 3 or 4*BB in the same situation later on?
There is a 57% chance of flopping an overcard to the Jacks. It's better than 40% that an A or K shows up the flop. If I just picked up the blinds with JJ, I am happy that I didn't see 57% of the flops that weren't there. With a short stack, you obviously can't fold JJ a lot of the time when an overcard flops, but your larger stacked opponents can when they feel they are losing. If you raise the minimum pre-flop with the JJ and an overcard flops, you're very likely going to be the sickening situation where your opponent is only putting more money into the pot when you are beat.
To be honest, I don't think JJ is the monster hand that a lot of people think it is. It's an extremely good, and extremely vulnerable hand.
So is calling with JJ pre-flop better? Maybe, but not by much. This simply amounts to playing it as a drawing hand.
Do you see why I hate calling pre-flop too?
Seriously though, the advantage of only calling pre-flop is that your JJ is far better disguised if you do happen to get a nice flop. However, as I mentioned already, your hand also remains very well disguised if you disguise it as a standard steal. And what the heck are you supposed to do with your JJ on a bad flop after limping in with it? The way I see it, you're in the same pickle with the JJ on a bad flop whether you had just called or raised the minimum. However, calling has a slight "action advantage" when you do flop nicely.
The bottom line: If you're not going to steal-raise by betting the minimum, I think you're giving away far too much information by changing to raising the minimum when you do have a big hand. I mean, I read the guy for a big hand and I wasn't even there. :cool:
ScottyZ
Doesnt a J or 5 give him a full house cuz the board is paired?? So he wasnt drawing dead? Or did I misread. (edit: added the 5)
Still a good play by you, and awful by him IMHO.
G.
Let's talk about the level of poker we're dealing with. If we are at the WSOP, of course I only expect to be called by people that have my jacks completely beat. Unfortunately (or I guess fortunately) the type of play that is out there in the wild is contrary to what we expect. We sees people calling pot sized bets with overcards, people drawing to inside straights, people calling with any ace or even any king. So given that we know a lot of players will overplay their hands with the slightest piece of the flop, why not give them a chance to do just that?
In this situation, we have a shortstack with a pretty good hand who is facing a pot with little to no expected action. The low variance play would be to raise 3x the BB and likely pick up the blinds. The higher variance play would be to call/raise smaller and entice the blinds to play with you, where you could take advantage of them on a favourable flop. I can understand the raise because you don't want to give a completely free ticket. Just a cheap one.
Now.. is this something that I would do all the time with my pocket pairs? Nope. Is it something I would consider? Yes. Playing his way, he was able to get his money with the best of it against a player who wouldn't have played with him at all for a bigger bet. Sounds like he did something right. Was it +EV in the long term? Beats me, but I dont think it was absolutely disgusting. Heck, if the flop was all overcards, he still had 1200 chips to play with to make a final stand.
I guess what I meant was that, even with a player (or players) in the blind playing too loose post-flop, they're still probably not going to hit many flops hard enough (or even have something like a bare Ace) to pay you off. On the flip side of this, you're losing all your chips to those same players when the flop comes down Q72 if they got a free or cheap play on the BB with Q3. On that flop, are you folding if you're opponent moves all-in? Probably not. What if your oppoennt has 74 on that same flop? Is he folding if you move all-in? Maybe. That's the difference I think. You can't be too afraid of that flop with your JJ. You'll probably have to pay off your opponent every time he has a Q. But your opponents who have middle pair (or worse), may or may not pay you off. Who knows how often, and with what hands exactly. And who knows how often it's going to work out either of those two ways (i.e. you're losing or winning).
I *don't* mean that the players are so skilled that they will make a lot of big laydowns when they hit a small-to-medium piece of the flop. (Or especially a pair above J.) I just meant that, even with loose standards, it's pretty hard for one or two players in the blinds to flop even a mediochre hand. This is another reason I like calling over min-raising. You're allowing the opponents to be more likely to have hit a flop you like yourself.
The trouble with JJ with an overcard flop, even against fairly loose players, is that you'll never get a loose player out who hits top pair. How do you play the hand from there? So you're looking for a flop below Jack (or otherwise looking good), that also hits one of the blinds. Possible, but it seems fairly rare.
I think the overall skill level of tournament players at PokerStars is higher than many people people give credit for. Our perceptions are quite distorted because we remember the 5-10% of the *hardcore* dead money players who have laid incredible beats on us, or continuously move all-in pre-flop during rebuy periods for no apparent reason, or just generally don't seem to know what they're doing. I'm not saying that there isn't a fair share of little-skilled players, but I think our memory exaggerates the bad plays (which we naturally associate with bad players) in our minds.
I still bet he would have been happier picking up the 225 and being dealt in next hand.
ScottyZ
I don't think I would ever make that play. I was expecting overpairs....
Why go all in? Did he have a really small stack? Make a strong bet it's just as effective, if you're reraised you can bail, if he calls and you miss you're also in trouble. When you move all in? In that situation you're only going to be called if your beat...
Mr JJ had 1500 chips at the start of the hand. 300 preflop leaves 1200. You can't really 'make a strong bet' and then fold. Yer probably going to bet the pot (600 or so), would you fold that last 600 chips when shorty moves in? Garro felt that he had the best hand based on his read, isn't that the perfect time to go all-in?
Based on Garro's original read of 2 overcards, Garro is neither the favorite (Garro has worked out since then that we was roughly a 2 to 1 underdog against the hand he read his opponent for), nor was he being compensated enough by the pot size (Garro is offered about 1.6 to 1 by the pot on the turn, assuming the JJ will not fold after already betting 600 on the turn) to have a positive expectation draw based on that read.
ScottyZ
Thats right.. I was referring more to the fact that at the original time, Garro felt that he had the best hand.. so if you feel like you are the favourite, I don't see anything wrong with going all-in against a short stack.
The following may be the critical error:
Garro believes that he has 10 outs (maybe 11 outs, if you want to count the backdoor flush draw). That means with 47 unseen cards, his opponent has 47 - 10 = 37 outs.
The hand which is winning has a *LOT* more than just 6 outs. Every brick is an out for the opponent's hand because it is currently winning.
Incidentally, you need to have about 14-16 outs (depending on your oppponent's re-draw potential) to be the heads-up favorite with a draw and 2 cards to come.
ScottyZ
IMHO, JJ should have tripled the blinds preflop. He has an awkward stack... not short enough to push, not big enough to get tricky with. All he can do is triple pre-flop, hope for a caller, and hope for the best when he necessarily pushes on the flop. Such is his '10 X BB' situation.
I'm not a huge fan of the way garro played it either. Looking at Scotty's quote above, it's important to remember that garro was a huge dog with no fold equity to his bet because his opponent was committed. I'd probably have laid garro's hand down preflop, or if I chose to call, I'd only continue with the hand if the flop hit me perfectly, and that flop was far from perfect.
Regards,
all_aces
EDIT: Thanks for posting this hand garro. It takes some humility to post a hand that you suspect will get a mostly negative reaction. Take comfort in the fact that we are learning from your mistakes.
Regards,
all_aces
"I think that anal hemorrhoids is better than anal hemorrhoids together with rocking diarrhea."
Now, let's just hope that someone quoting PokerForum.ca doesn't quote *that* particular line.
At least I wasn't as grossly (mis)quoted as something like:
"I think that calling with...AA...is...your...winning...play...
I'm never going to raise...I am happy...that I...see...the...flop...
And what the heck are you supposed to do...on a bad flop...? I think you're giving away far too much...by...raising...when you do have a big hand."
ScottyZ
P.S. Deepest apologies if you had recently eaten before reading this post.
This is an excellent point. I had been tiptoeing around the fact that the JJ can't fold on very many flops, but all_aces has more accurately and effectively nailed this point.
On the flop (after putting in a 3 or 4 BB raise), the JJ can neither get away from the hand, nor let his opponent chase for free.
Fancy plays (including pre-flop) which try to get you "paid off" in this situation are maybe something you could try if the stacks were deeper (and with a better hand than JJ), but as it was, all_aces describes the only way of playing the JJ which I think really makes sense.
ScottyZ
Regards,
all_aces
Yes, that was a valid quote from a post (although obviously a gross misuse of ellipses).
Load the modified "You have too much time on your hands" torpedoes and fire at will.
ScottyZ
P.S. Fire a salvo at Sloth and his new Parish too.
All right, I admit it, I played poorly, but please, please, please, no more references to bodily afflictions best left unsaid. Haven't I suffered enough, I have learned my lesson. I will never make that kind of bonehead poor play again *, at some point I am sure I will make some other equally boneheaded play, but never again that one.
With the following statement now out there for all to see perhaps it is time to end this discussion.
Thank you....:redface:
*please not that the above statement from garro is not legally binding in any fashion.
--- His Lawyer :rolleyes:
The poopy comment I made was (at least indirectly) in reference to your *opponent's* play of the JJ, not your play Garro.
ScottyZ
I know that I just feel that any discussion which leads to that kind of statement, is causing me to suffer just as much as anyone else.
After all the other poor schmo who you are all talking about can't share the pain with me.
He did make a poor play but given the opinion around here, mine was still worse.
Regards,
all_aces
We sure do.
http://pokerforum.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=1011
ScottyZ