What's your play?

AcidJoe

I was playing in a paradise $6 rebuy for a seat into their $200 WPT niagara satellite.  I was 2nd in chips after an earlier horridous beat which moved me to about 19th from chip leader as I doubled up the 2nd chip leader.  Chip leader has about 44K.  At this point the rebuys were long done top 3 got a seat with top 6 getting money.  There was 12 people left at this point.   fearlesstaz had been splashing around in pots, his raises of this size not usually called.  He had joined the table maybe 13 hands ago when it became 10 handed. 
Tournament Satellite - WPT Niagara - 800/1,600
No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2006/09/28-17:21:24.0 (CST)
Table "Satellite - WPT" (MTT) -- Seat 6 is the button
Seat  3: The1Count  (6,830 in chips)
Seat  4: mikeyray69  (21,375 in chips)
Seat  6: jtdaddy  (9,685 in chips)
Seat  7: fearlesstaz  (20,300 in chips)
Seat  8: Acidjoe  (25,575 in chips)
Seat 10: big   Jim  (13,420 in chips)
mikeyray69: Ante (80)
jtdaddy : Ante (80)
fearlesstaz: Ante (80)
Acidjoe : Ante (80)
big   Jim: Ante (80)
The1Count: Ante (80)
fearlesstaz: Post Small Blind (800)
Acidjoe : Post Big Blind (1,600)
Dealing...
Dealt to Acidjoe [ Kc ]
Dealt to Acidjoe [ Ks ]
big   Jim: Fold
The1Count: Fold
mikeyray69: Fold
jtdaddy : Fold
fearlesstaz: Raise (5,000)

P.S. Thanks shopsy for rail birding......

pkrfce9

just push. no need to get fancy here.

ChrisWinsor

pkrfce9 wrote:

just push. no need to get fancy here.

Damn someone beat me to it.

BigChrisEl

I would push it, there's an easy 5000 (not counting the blinds and antes) lying out there which will be a nice amount to add to your stack.

I would assume it would be a very tough call for him to make unless he has Aces because if he does call and you win he is out in 6th and with the The1Count (6,830 in chips) coming up to the blinds he may not want to tangle and wait for one spot higher.

Why do I have the feeling he called and show A-Rag and caught the Ace?

pkrfce9

BigChrisEl wrote:

Why do I have the feeling he called and show A-Rag and caught the Ace?

ya. the other option is to smooth call and push on an ace-free flop but i hate doing that. when you are a 70% fav, get the chips in when you can

ol-stone-face

I know others are saying push here but I'm heads up now and want some action. KK heads up is a monster and I don't want him to fold. I might raise it another 5to7k here hoping he will call with the favorable pot odds. Good chance he may fold anyway which isn't so bad. If he pushes then I am happy to call. An A on the flop would suck but we'll deal with that when/if it happens. I will most likely be pushing any flop without an A. Most of all I'm really taking a run at it from here on out and want some chips.
That being said I seem to get killed by AA quite often lately.

moose

Joe your post is confusing me.  You say it is 12 handed.  Then you say someone joins when it is 10 handed.  Then your HH shows 6 handed.  Are we on the final table here or 2 - 6 handed tables or what?  You were 2nd in chips but you were also the chip leader and also 19th but now in back 2nd (maybe) but the HH shows you as chip leader of this table?  Huh?  What?  I'm lost.

AcidJoe

He joined the table 10 handed.... the table is now down to 6 he had played about 13 hands or so.    There is another table of 6 still playing as well.  The blinds were high relative to the chip stacks.   Sorry if I confused you moose but I had a limited read on the player due to him not playing at my table much.  Hope this unconfuses you.

AcidJoe

I actually believe I made the correct play.  It was the chat afterwards prompted this post.  I will post what I did and what was said later. I wanted to see others opinons.

moose

If you were trying to win this I would say either push and take his chips or reraise to build a pot.
Since this is a satellite I would be careful about mixing it up in a big pot.  Without a good read on the guy you don't know if he will call an allin, suck out and cripple you.  You don't need all his chips to get the ticket, but some would be nice.  If you knew he was likely to fold, I would push, but you don't know that, without a read.

If you push, you really want only one thing from him in this situation - you want him to fold.  However, if your opponent is stealing, he wants you to fold and if he has a hand he is willing to go on, he wants you to push.  Pushing or raising makes the decision for your opponent easy, it will either be push back or fold.  However, calling makes it tough on him and easy for you on the flop, with him OOP.

If you smooth call, you can still get away from the hand on the flop and have plenty enough chips to pick up your satellite ticket.  You are not quite in the classic satellite situation of folding AA but you are close.  You have position on him and can close the betting, so you don't have to worry about someone reraising behind you.  Control the pot size, call and be cautious about getting mixed up in big pots.

ScoobyD

If you push, you really want only one thing from him in this situation - you want him to fold.

Please explain this to me. If I push... I want him to call. It's not like we're that close to the seat yet. I'm LOOKING for a way that gets all of villian's chips in the middle here. If he's got loose calling standards preflop and I think he'll call a push, I go ahead and push. If I think he'll get his chips in with the worst of it on the flop, I might flat call. But I'm sure as heck not looking for a reason to fold.

ScoobyD

You are not quite in the classic satellite situation of folding AA but you are close.

I don't think this situation is anywhere remotely close to this. Now if both villain and hero had 100x the stacks of 3rd place and worse...then yes, you would basically be avoiding any and all confrontations with that stack.

AcidJoe

ScoobyD wrote:

You are not quite in the classic satellite situation of folding AA but you are close.

I don't think this situation is anywhere remotely close to this.   Now if both villain and hero had 100x the stacks of 3rd place and worse...then yes, you would basically be avoiding any and all confrontations with that stack.

folding was the last thing on my mind. if we were 4 handed I may have considered this.....NAH...... I'm way too aggressive to miss this opportunity.

moose

He is 2nd in chips and 6 places from the money. Top 3 get a seat. Doubling through here is not necessary to pick up his seat. With his chip position he can easily steal from all the smaller stacks and get his seat. He doesn't have a good read on his opponent. If he knew he was stealing this is a great opportunity but he doesn't know the player yet. Just dumping his chips in and hoping he finishes ahead at the end of the hand is not the way to play after a couple hours. Any idiot can play that way. His hand is so powerful why would he do that? If he gets outflopped, with position he can still easily get away from the hand. If he is allin he can't and he has no opportunity to outplay his opponent. If his opponent catches a piece of the flop Joe is in a great position to trap and take a nice pot.

It took skill to get this far. Keep using it.

BigChrisEl

moose wrote:

He is 2nd in chips and 6 places from the money.  Top 3 get a seat.  Doubling through here is not necessary to pick up his seat.  With his chip position he can easily steal from all the smaller stacks and get his seat. 

Not true, there are two tables of 6 each (12 players total), he is a few spots away from the money.

I think I would call here and hope to see a flop I like then push.

AcidJoe

To answer everyone's question I did push ( I thought it was a no brainer). He called with A T of hearts. He did spike the A. Back to why I originally posted this as buddy went into a tirade about what a stupid idiotic player I was. I NEVER should have pushed. I believe he never should have called with that but that's not the point. He went out to coach me about how I should have flat called and then pushed on the A free flop but since an A did flop I should have immediately folded to his bet that he would have made. Flat calling never occured to me since I don't want him to hit his set if he's got a smaller pair like q's or J's. About the only time I consider doing something else is on the bubble for a seat where I don't want to bubble out to a larger stack.

fearlesstaz said, "u shoulda just called"
Acidjoe said, "i shoulda called with kk right"
fearlesstaz said, "in that position...yes"
Acidjoe said, "naw make you pay to hit"
fearlesstaz said, "what did u think I had 24 off"
mikeyray69 said, "you have been unreal fear ...good player"
Acidjoe said, "you had A something"
Acidjoe said, "and you hit"
fearlessstaz said, "what did you think I had 2 4 off idiot?"
Acidjoe said, "you had AT suited but you could have easily had JJ or QQ"
Acidjoe said, "I was not going to let you draw on me for free, I'll get my money in as a 65% fav every time"
fearlesstaz said, "just assume the only hand u can get beat by is aa
or a and a draw"
fearlesstaz said "you play like an idiot, u be out soon"
Acidjoe said, "because that's playing chicken s*** poker"
mikeyray69 said, "to many fat stack haha"
Acidjoe said, "I had you beat preflop and wanted you to pay to draw out
fearlesstaz said, "u can all in AFTER the flop"
fearlesstaz said, "u probably kiss ur sister too"
Acidjoe said, "u got lucky and you won....."
fearlesstaz said, "u do ur sister of course"
fearlesstaz said, "53K vs $K"
fearlesstaz said, "4K"
mikeyray69 said, "fear don't listen to him you are a hell of a good player"
Acidjoe said, "keep playing this way I'd love to run into that situation 10 times cuz
your out here 7 of them"
Acidjoe said, "go coach someone else"

stpboy

pkrfce9 wrote:

just push. no need to get fancy here.

This is exactly what I would have said, likely with better punctuation though I would think this is the most logical and common thing to do in this situation given the chip stacks, pot size and tournament type.

stp

stpboy

For the record, I think A10 is a brutal call. Even against a player that is tagged as Loose aggressive, I'd likely lay this down and who knows you may have been playing conservatively throughout. No need to question your play here, 'fear' got very lucky.

stp

ChrisWinsor

what is with morons and the internet. They think they can start talking shit whenever they want, and that they are always right.

Hopefully karma with come into effect and you can get into that situation with him again and win.

P.S that kid mickey was also a complete donk.

moose

BigChrisEl wrote:

moose wrote:

He is 2nd in chips and 6 places from the money.  Top 3 get a seat.  Doubling through here is not necessary to pick up his seat.  With his chip position he can easily steal from all the smaller stacks and get his seat. 

Not true, there are two tables of 6 each (12 players total), he is a few spots away from the money.

Top 6 pay.

12 people - 6 people = 6 places from money

ChrisWinsor

Whitehorse wrote:

ChrisWinsor wrote:

P.S that kid mickey was also a complete donk.

Chris, Mikeyray was playing the guy. Positively reinforcing his stupid play.....

\

/\R u surwe/?

AcidJoe

I happen to agree with chris on this one. Mikey was playing loose and splashing in almost every unraised pot. He was a complete donk in my opinion. I know fear got lucky, but that is poker. To make that call knowing I could bust him out and he was the likely dog in that hand. Chances are I don't make that push with a weaker A than he had so he could have found himself dominated. If I had tried a fancy play and got busted in my opinion I would deserve it.

ol-stone-face

Knowing he would call with AT I would always be pushing against this guy preflop with KK. What a doofas....proud he sucked out and even attributes it to his great play. What a reality gap.
Tough break

ChrisWinsor

I just dont get that mentality... He says to call the all after the flop.. well he wouldnt be making the all in with AT unless he hit an ace, he'd be folding to the KK's bet ... just makes no damn sense.

beanie42

BigChrisEl wrote:

I think I would call here and hope to see a flop I like then push.

Same here. Call, and then push on a non-A flop. The blinds are making most short-stacked, and you probably won't be scaring off many big/middle A's. Pushing pre-flop is higeher-value (you win more when you win), but the 30% of the time you lose would hurt more than the gain, in my opinion. With this being a satellite, and you not being short-stacked or deep-stacked, this is a really ugly hand to try to play.

pkrfce9

stpboy wrote:

pkrfce9 wrote:

just push. no need to get fancy here.

This is exactly what I would have said, likely with better punctuation though   I

LOL. SHOW ME THE PUNCTUATION ERRORS, GRAMMAR NAZI. NO INITIAL CAPS? OK. PUNCTUATION? NO WAY! IT IS CALLED STYLE, SHANNON...

and yes, i'm kidding

BlondeFish

Villain had pot odds of 1.7-to-1 to call an all-in with A-10, or a breakeven percentage of 37% (15,220 / 40,920).  Unless he has gotten a read on you in that short time that the ONLY hands you would go all in with are 10-10 to A-A or A-J to A-K, his call is OK with his effective M being down to 3.5 (15,220 / 2,880 * 6 / 9).  With A-10 soooted, I would estimate that my probability of winning against your all-in range is higher than 37%, so I would have +EV and I would have called too.  As it turns out, pocket kings is a 67% favourite over A-10.

In a normal tournament, I would have also re-raised all-in with K-K, but late game decisions in multi-qualifier satellite tournaments can become quite unusual and counter-intuitive.  I agree that the optimum play for the #2 chip leader would be to just flat call and hope for an Ace-free flop.  If you are forced to fold after the flop, you still have 19,775 chips and in great shape to remain in the top 6 and win money.  If you believe that you are a better player than the 2nd and 3rd chip leaders ("complete donk" mikeyray69  with 21,295 chips and fearlesstaz with 25,700 chips), your expectation of finishing in the top 3 and winning a seat is high.

I am playing in an even weirder multi-qualifier WPT satellite tournament tonight.  The final eight survivors of tonight's semi-final go on to a final for a WPT seat with up to 16 finalists.  Players that finish 9th or lower tonight get nothing, but there is no incentive to try to win first place.  Situations may come up near the bubble where playing any hand, including pocket kings and aces, would be incorrect.  The correct strategy for the chip leaders is to avoid confrontation with each other and cooperate to eliminate the small stacks, but it is more likely that incredible blunders will be made in endgame play.

beanie42 wrote:

Call, and then push on a non-A flop.  The blinds are making most short-stacked, and you probably won't be scaring off many big/middle A's.  Pushing pre-flop is higeher-value (you win more when you win), but the 30% of the time you lose would hurt more than the gain, in my opinion.  With this being a satellite, and you not being short-stacked or deep-stacked, this is a really ugly hand to try to play.

ChrisWinsor

Howzabout A10 is a crap hand and he should fold?

ScoobyD

Villain had pot odds of 2.7-to-1 to call an all-in with A-10, or a breakeven percentage of 37% (15,220 / 40,920).

Wrong.  Villain has about 1.7:1 by my math.  Pot is 80 * 6 + 5000 + 5000 + allin raise of ~15000.  Pot is at 25K and change and it costs 15K to call. 

And villain can probably determine he'se likely worse than a 2:1 dog here.  So yes, he's NOT justified in calling.

ryanghall

Easy push. But you know that.

Ryan