Tournament hand from yesterday.
This is a hand from a tournament yesterday at the Yellowhead Casino here in Edmonton. I want your thoughts.
Here's the break down.
T600,000 chips in play down to final 4
Blinds are 30,000-60,000
You are big blind for 60K you have 56,000 left after the post of blind
Small blind is a skilled player. Other 2 are ok, not great, not bad.
UTG folds, next one folds. SB raises you all in. He has T300,000 in front of him. You will have to call 56K to win 176K (3-1)
You look at your hand it's a big 10c 2s
Do you make this call?
I'll post what I did and the results on Sat. night
Here's the break down.
T600,000 chips in play down to final 4
Blinds are 30,000-60,000
You are big blind for 60K you have 56,000 left after the post of blind
Small blind is a skilled player. Other 2 are ok, not great, not bad.
UTG folds, next one folds. SB raises you all in. He has T300,000 in front of him. You will have to call 56K to win 176K (3-1)
You look at your hand it's a big 10c 2s
Do you make this call?
I'll post what I did and the results on Sat. night
Comments
Let us know what you did.
What are the payouts for the Top 4? How much did you care about sneaking into 3rd or maybe 2nd as compared to having a realistic shot at first? What are the stack sizes?
There are 10 big blinds in the entire tournament during the Top 4, one of the most important parts of the tourney? Average stack = 2.5 BB? I've heard of a tournament not having any play, but come on...
ScottyZ
4th 600.00+change
3rd 900.00+change
2nd 1350.00
1st 2020.00
Hope this makes the discussion better. I will post what I did and what happened on Sat. Aug 7th.
That's what I was thinking.
But if you have a chance to sneak into 3rd or 2nd (one of the other two has 90K or less), I would fold.
Well, I wasn't necessarily suggesting folding... just that it might be an option worth considering here in a case where a call is automatic if the situation was more typical (even with any two cards). This is because of the other short stacks whose blinds are coming up. This particular case is quite bizzare actually... you have 4 players, 3 of which are desparately short stacked, and the chip leader who is merely short stacked.
In a different situation where you were the *only* short stack (for example), I think this is an easy call based on pot odds, since you can assume your opponent's hand is fairly random.
I don't think I would fold the BB with the intention of trying to pick up a better hand in the SB. *If* I decided to fold the BB, it would be because another player is going to be forced to go all-in before I was. Although it would be a tough situation if you picked up a Group 1 hand in the SB, I think folding the BB here would be done with the expectation of also folding anything but a monster hand (maybe just QQ-AA) the SB.
ScottyZ
By doing this you give up any realistic shot at 1st place $2000 so that maybe, if someone else puts their stack in and loses you just might win an extra $300. Why leave your fate in the hands of the other players? What happens if the other 2 short stacks win a pot? Now what? Take charge of your destiny and call. If you win your big blind you will have almost 240k. You would be tied for the chip lead and have a very good chance to win the tournament.
Its a no brainer. CALL! CALL! CALL!
And if you pick up a better hand in the SB and double up you can pick any one of the next 3 hands to try and double up again which will still put you near 240K, 10-2o is a serious problem hand, it can't really beat anything...Now I'm sure when all is said and done and Adam reveals what he did, it will be something along the lines of calling and having the flop com 10-2-2 just to prove what a retard I am
Lets say you call the big and you win so now you have 240k. Now you get that good hand in the small and win that too you could have 340k(depending on opponents stack size) If you fold the big and win in the small you would only have 120k.
Perhaps because they will either play poorly, or be forced by the rules and/or strategy of the game to gamble before you really need to.
That makes it an easy call if you have a good (even decent) hand.
When the blinds are this big, even the small stacks have a chance. The primary purpose of leaving yourself with 26K is to hope for an opponent to bust out (again, *IF* one of your opponents has <90K). But the secondary purpose is that you still have a microstack to play with as backup. Since the blinds are so big, you are covered by either blind, so you have a decent chance to triple up. True, you may get stuck playing a random hand all-in, but you were doing that anyway with the T2. Of course, you win more chips with the T2.
I just think this is not nearly as obvious a call as it appears to be at first glance.
I'm thinking I *really* want to know of one of the opponents has less than 90K. :cool: If not, then it's a very easy call.
Forget it. I hardly know what to do with the ones I have. And don't get me started on what a pain it is to have to wash them once or twice a month...
ScottyZ
I'd say you have to call in most scenarios.
The exception is if there is a very good chance that someone will bust out by the next time you have to post the Big Blind and you can move up a position.
As others have mentioned, when the stacks are so small in comparison to the blinds it makes it very difficult to actually do much "playing" and you get to the point where you have to push and pray. This *could* very well be a flat out steal by the big stack, in which case you might be in a coin flip against a random hand. You've survived the long haul to get to the top 4 but now is the time where you can't avoid the close decisions that you've been avoiding up until now and have to go for it.
hork.
ARe we supposed to wash our balls? I only wash what I can see and I havnt seen my balls in about 3 years....lol
It is an obvious call if your playing to win the tournament.
If you only want to move up a placing (you dont care about winning)then you can consider folding.
I want to win so I would call and take my chances as a 2-1 underdog(most likely). If I fold the big and the small(assuming I get rags) then I will be all in on my next big blind unless I pick up a good hand before it. So I have 26k on the button and I finally get that good hand (AK). Do I call or should I fold and hope one of the blinds goes out before me. What hands should I put my last 26k in with? Only AA KK?
Do I fold everything(even AA) untill I am forced to play the blind hoping someone else busts?
How far do you take this quest for the extra $300?
My point is this: The big blind is only in major trouble if the chip leader has a pair of 10s or better. But there is now way of knowing what the chip leader has you can only assume that it is most likely 2 face cards or any A X. If that is true then 10 2 is a 2-1 underdog in this spot. Is the chip leader capable of raising with a worse hand than 10 2 say something like 89s? Only Adam can answer that since he played that day.
When you finally do put the last 26k in you will probably face 2 opponents maybe even 3 if you wait untill you are the big blind. So unless you are fortunate enough to get AA or KK you will be a big underdog to win that hand.
Take the heads up shot as a possible 2-1 dog with the chance to win 240k
Yes, definitely.
You could, if the extra $300 was important to you. However, I'd probably go ahead and play QQ or better from the SB. Let's not hold our breath.
As for the T2o specifically, I totally agree that this is a perfectly good hand to make a 3-1 pot odds call with against (what seems to be) a random hand under "normal" circumstances. E.g. you're the only short stack. Any two will suffice.
I just think this tournament is quite strange when you are such an extremely short stack having at least one *even shorter* stack out against you (as of before you posted the BB).
It guess it just struck me as weird for a microstack to possibly lose all of his chips before someone else, when the opponent was scheduled to blind off first.
To be honest, I probably would call here. I'd maybe give stronger consideration to folding both blinds if either
1. *Both* of the other short stack opponents were scheduled to blind off first
OR
2. One short stack opponent would blind out before me, and I would cover the other short stack when it was his SB (in which case, I would call blind on his SB).
ScottyZ
I'll also explain the tournament a bit better for you guys out there to understand.
But this is still great to hear the discussion.
Agreed. Top notch discussion so far.
As for Dick's question, it's probably a closer decision than most people think given the specific scenario. I think it's going to depend if you're on a short stack.
ScottyZ
If he has:
2 overcards: (eg. AK) 31% chance to take the pot
1 overcard: (eg. k7) 35%.
Medium pair: (eg. 88) 27.5%
Overpair: (eg. kk) 11%
So now it looks like the 3-1 odds are a pretty good call unless he has an overpair. The blinds are HUGE. Noone is going to respect you're stack when you move all in, but they would if you hit this hand. The only reason I wouldn't call is if I was almost sure a player would go out before the blinds came around again.
Now that the votes are in, i can see my dilema was shared by all. By a small margin Fold wins but man there is a big argumment to call.
I FOLDED.
Reason: Of all the hands to be dealt here 10-2os was the worse one i could ask for. Along with 9-2,7-2,10-3. You get the idea. The Sb was a skilled player and given this fact I can say for certain he had some form of a playable hand. COuld be anything from A,rag to 5-6s. And gave him credit for something along these lines. My thinking this help a bit. If he had any non pair hand, I have a 30% chance to win(69%-31%). If he had a pair under my tens i was a slight big dog, pair over my tens(stick a fork in me im done) 11% chance to win.
I called "TIME" first time ever too. And stacked my chips, 57K left if I fold. 200+K if I call and win. But I could not get myself to call with the 10-2os. I was willing to go out on the SB no matter what the cards would be. This was I could double them to 114K, and be able to play a hand again for a good raise.
So on the SB i called all in when the other 2 folded out. So heads up with me and BB. I did this without looking, to my surprise I had a K8s, Ironicly the SB had 83os. I floped a K turned a K and double myself up. WooHoo....
Don't play a hand till my BB again, again the SB(skilled player) goes all-in again. I'm sure he making a move on me again, i look A6os. I call. Turn over the hands he shows A4os. Flop K,8, 10, turn 2 river 3...........Yes the only two runner runners I can win the whole pot. Karma will pay back in spades.
Double again, off the chip leader..now I lead... Take out BB next hand, where 3 handed. Few hands later. I'm SB get dealt a Q as im looking at it the dealer hits my blind with the second card and it flips over..yep a Q..........
F********
so my replacement is a 2, but suited(hahaha) so I say all in when the button folds. Now comes the big part. BB folds??????? They only have about 25K left. Amazing, must have had a Q to fold??? Skilled player then knocks them out on there SB next hand. SO now heads up. Me and skilled, I have a 2-1 chip lead, I say want to deal, the response was"you have the lead make the offer" so in thinking I'm playing a crap shoot level where anything can happen. I take 1700.00 you take 1600.00 the extra goes to the dealers.
Deal accepted. I make 1605.00 profit.
Now for the tournament details all where wondering about. Yes its a no play level I was talking about. But this is a Sunday tourn. They run every second Sunday. $30ntry, 10 Rebuys, 25 addon. You may re-buy any time your under 1001level 1, 2001level 2, 3001,level 3 4001 level 4. So if you bust out in level 4 you can drop $50 and have 5000T again. Levels are all 20min. long.
Tournament starts at 3pm and is done by 10-10:30. This was one of the very few times it has hit the 30K-60K blinds. most are deals at final 3 players. As an equal split will pay more than second place. We played 5 rounds at that level(wow).
Levels are smooth for the most part 25-25,25-50,50-75,50-100, add ons, then 100-200,150-300,200-400,300-600,500-1000,700-1500,1500-3000,3k-6k,5k-10k(the big jump),10k-20k,15k-30k,30k-60k.
Ther is some play but it get fast latter. And most tournaments have 50-80 players. So I was in buyin+4rebuys+addon=$95. a small amount for a fun tournament. And 2020.00 first place is big for the price. Lots-o-rebuys.
I thank all who answered the poll, just wondering how far of base my play might have been, or how we all react to this situation. I don't feel bad folding, i was looking at make 600 fourth place anyways, thought the SB would be better than 102os for sure, just got lucky to win.