To vaccinate or not, to have proof or not?

torontotablecpt

I’m very happy that we are able discuss this sensitive topic maturely without name calling and childish behaviour. Thank you.

I guess the old guard can now add covid discussions to “what not to talk about at the poker table “ along with religion and politics.

I hear it’s a hot topic at wsop this year with players not allowed to play with out full vaccination, but dealers can still deal. Haha

compuease

torontotablecpt;c-420464 wroteI’m very happy that we are able discuss this sensitive topic maturely without name calling and childish behaviour. Thank you.

Well most of left on here are friends and know each other personally so that makes it easier.

I guess the old guard can now add covid discussions to “what not to talk about at the poker table “ along with religion and politics.

Who you calling old? :wink:

I hear it’s a hot topic at wsop this year with players not allowed to play with out full vaccination, but dealers can still deal.
Haha

I can only imagine what that discrepancy is causing... I think I will stay away this year.

moose

compuease;c-420450 wroteSorry but it IS my business and right to know if you are vaxxed or not if I am going to spend any time indoors with you. Although I and my adult children, as well as older grandchildren, are vaxxed the younger ones are not. The chances of me unknowingly picking it up and passing it on to one of them is significantly increased if I associated with someone unvaccinated for any significant period of time. I certainly will not knowingly sit at a poker table with someone who is not vaccinated. These are just facts not my opinion.

As for people knowing my my medical history, bullshit, all it shows is one vaccine completion, nothing more. What the heck are we afraid of. We have had to show our kids vaccinations for so many other diseases pre school, what's the difference?

I have to disagree. It certainly is not your business. Either you feel safe going out in the world vaccinated or not. If you fear picking up the virus and bringing it home then you shouldn't be going out. The vaccine is not your personal shield from transmitting the virus. Nor is a vaccinated person any less likely to have come into contact with the virus. Either you accept the risks or you don't.

The difference is Comp, that schooling is mandatory, whether at a public school, private school or home school. Medical information is shared with someone that can be trusted to keep it private. Already this information is being shared between individuals who do not have near the same standard of care and that information is being shared with other hosts and posted publicly on the forum. Any 'have' list, naturally also forms a 'have not' list.

I already had this out with Drtyore and for some reason he felt it necessary to share a private conversation he had with someone else on the same topic and personally I felt uncomfortable that he did that. Private information is private information. This is exactly the reason why there is a Privacy Act that all organizations must adhere to when it comes to the collection of personal data.

It is wrong.

MrCaspan

Please understand my tone sounds harsh in text but I'm not trying to be an ass or super argumentative or put someone down. So I apologize if it comes across that way. I think there can be civil discussion about this topic and points can be made respectfully. 20 years of the internet has taught me to use a sledge hammer to hit a nail in. LOL please take it as jibber jabber between people!!

torontotablecpt;c-420461 wroteWhen the rest of your freedoms are taken away, look in the mirror, you have no one else to blame but you.

This statement is what's called a "Straw Man Argument" To your actual point that our rights are being eroded and the possible "boiling frog" syndrome is happening here, no-one is taking your rights away as you think they are. No law or act has been written that has taken your rights away. No one is forcing you to get the vaccination. BUT people have the right to run their businesses or their private property the way they please, it's theirs, not the governments. If these people have decided to only allow vaccinated people in their store or on their property for the sole reason to protect their family and patrons, that IS THEIR RIGHT. I would argue that the unvaccinated are the ones asking to take OUR rights away to choose who comes onto our private property. The government is only providing vaccine passports to allow an easy way to verify if you are vaccinated or not. No one's rights have been taken away here.

Maybe I am also ignorant and don't realize a right has been taken away, can you explain what rights have been taken away?

MrCaspan

This argument that knowledge of vaccination is medical information I think is over rated. Its not medical information in my opinion and the only people that are arguing against seem to be same people that are mad this will prove they are not vaccinated.

@moose do you worry about having to show your ID if asked to prove you are 19 to buy cigarettes' or booze? It has your home address on it, people could stock you. No because you understand it's an understandable safeguard put in place to protect us. I feel this is just the same..

EDIT: Let me add to this by asking anyone how do you feel this information that you are vaccinated could be abused say in the wrong hands? I know unvaccinated status could cause you to have to pay higher life insurance rates or even force a rewrite of a life insurance policy to exclude payout if you die of COVID and you are unvaccinated

moose

MrCaspan;c-420468 wroteThis argument that knowledge of vaccination is medical information I think is over rated. Its not medical information in my opinion and the only people that are arguing against seem to be same people that are mad this will prove they are not vaccinated.

@moose do you worry about having to show your ID if asked to prove you are 19 to buy cigarettes' or booze? It has your home address on it, people could stock you. No because you understand it's an understandable safeguard put in place to protect us. I feel this is just the same..

EDIT: Let me add to this by asking anyone how do you feel this information that you are vaccinated could be abused say in the wrong hands? I know unvaccinated status could cause you to have to pay higher life insurance rates or even force a rewrite of a life insurance policy to exclude payout if you die of COVID and you are unvaccinated

1. If the guy is writing that information down in a book that he keeps behind his counter, for his 'records'. 100% I would.

2. False information is easily spread. For instance:

The truth about COVID-19 vaccination and insurance coverage

Recently there has been misinformation circulating on social media, raising concerns that getting vaccinated for COVID-19 could negatively affect a customer’s existing life insurance policies or valid Group Benefits coverage with Manulife, or prevent Canadians from getting new life or health insurance coverage. This is untrue.

What you need to know
Getting vaccinated for COVID-19 does not negatively affect your or your plan members’ existing life insurance or valid Group Benefits coverage with us in any way. Additionally, getting a COVID-19 vaccine doesn’t impact a customer’s ability to get new life and health insurance coverage with Manulife.

We continue to follow guidance and recommendations from the World Health Organization and the Canadian government, including supporting government-approved vaccines to combat COVID-19.

Help stop the spread of misinformation about COVID-19 vaccination
Assure your plan members that getting vaccinated for COVID-19 does not negatively affect their existing life insurance or valid Group Benefits coverage in any way, or their ability to get new life and health insurance coverage with Manulife.

3. Let's say your work could force to in to work if they knew you were vaccinated but for your own health and safety you would prefer to continue to work from home. Let's say you were a nurse and if your work knew you were vaccinated, they could force you to work on a covid ward because you were 'more protected'. Let's say you had a legitimate reason to be unvaccinated and because of this you were held back from promotion because your employer felt more comfortable working with a vaccinated person. Is that fair?

torontotablecpt

MrCaspan;c-420467 wrotePlease understand my tone sounds harsh in text but I'm not trying to be an ass or super argumentative or put someone down. So I apologize if it comes across that way. I think there can be civil discussion about this topic and points can be made respectfully. 20 years of the internet has taught me to use a sledge hammer to hit a nail in. LOL please take it as jibber jabber between people!!

torontotablecpt;c-420461 wroteWhen the rest of your freedoms are taken away, look in the mirror, you have no one else to blame but you.
This statement is what's called a "Straw Man Argument" To your actual point that our rights are being eroded and the possible "boiling frog" syndrome is happening here, no-one is taking your rights away as you think they are. No law or act has been written that has taken your rights away. No one is forcing you to get the vaccination. BUT people have the right to run their businesses or their private property the way they please, it's theirs, not the governments. If these people have decided to only allow vaccinated people in their store or on their property for the sole reason to protect their family and patrons, that IS THEIR RIGHT. I would argue that the unvaccinated are the ones asking to take OUR rights away to choose who comes onto our private property. The government is only providing vaccine passports to allow an easy way to verify if you are vaccinated or not. No one's rights have been taken away here.

Maybe I am also ignorant and don't realize a right has been taken away, can you explain what rights have been taken away?

I like you caspan, even though your pic looks like the 40 year old virgin.

No rights, yet. Until the passport dictates otherwise. Obviously going to restaurants and driving are privileges.

Just like I’m not a doctor, I’m not a lawyer but here are my random thoughts

https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/how-rights-protected/guide-canadian-charter-rights-freedoms.html

Absence of a “passport” for any Canadian citizen is a way of branding me and segregating me and that is discrimination. A no no.

I mean if you want to take it to the extreme, pretty soon pedophiles and rapists will have more freedoms than someone who doesn’t want to take the “jab”.

I have committed no crime.

The only person who decides what goes in my body is me.

And I really didn’t like your comment about hospital rooms being given to those who took the vaccine and ohip should cancelled for those who didn’t take the vaccine. That’s dictator speak. Talking about being a social and charismatic person doing your duty cause you took a vaccine to prevent a virus which is survived by 98-% of people who get it. Take it easy sledge hammer!

What happens if this vaccine makes everyone sick down the line and the hospitals are full because of them. Does that apply to those people too?

Where did you read about insurance premiums going up? I’d like to see that.

Good chatting with you.

MrCaspan

How do you know they are not writing it down after? It's not a great point but trying to compare apples to apples here is hard. But it's an example where we as a society are okay with showing our ID that shows where we live to a stranger and were okay with that but were not okay with showing proof we got a needle. Its just a funny comparison. And lets say 100% is it medical information, just my opinion but if I was asked which would you rather.... "Tell someone your home address, or tell them you got vaccinated" I'd rather someone knows I got vaccinated. To me showing ID or proof of age is accepted because it makes sense and you grew up with it and what harm does it do and you feel its a safe guard and don't argue against it? This whole showing your vaccination status is something new so people feel they have to argue for or against it, and "Think of the kids" I sum it up to the whole right to repair movement and companies saying if we allow a user the blueprints and OEM parts to change their batteries in their phones they could blow up in their face. While that statement is true, its not exactly a road block issue so we shoudl never allow it. We drive everyday around cars that were repaired by ANYONE, they are even allowed to do their own break job and possibly even do it wrong and plow through an intersection and kill 3 people with their 1 ton vehicle. But were okay with that but not okay with the possibility of a battery exploding? How many people die every day because of accidents but we still drive and are okay with allowing anyone to repair a vehicle and we still feel safe somehow. But because its new we fell like it should be more restrictive when 90% of the things we do every day contradict that need and we feel safe. I don't know its just food for thought is all.

I feel any information can be misused in the wrong hands but I feel it will be so minor of an issue to those it happens to just like driving on the road we just accept the risk and were okay with it and not asking for reform of any kind. The good results from it will over weigh the bad like 100,000:1

The life insurance thing came from a Forbs article I read just recently that said business are going to be deducting a value from unvaccinated employees pay cheques to pay for the premiums that are going to go up

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2021/08/08/coming-soon-for-the-unvaccinated-a-50-monthly-paycheck-deduction-from-your-employer/?sh=4b65259b47ae

It is happening to some people in the US as they return to work. So was just using it as an example. I don't know if its right or not but its on the table for discussion it seems by some US businesses.

trigs

The slippery slope argument is clearly understood as a logical fallacy (my bold added).

Slippery slope argument, in logic, the fallacy of arguing that a certain course of action is undesirable or that a certain proposition is implausible because it leads to an undesirable or implausible conclusion via a series of tenuously connected premises, each of which is understood to lead, causally or logically, to the premise (or conclusion) that follows it.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/slippery-slope-argument

MrCaspan

torontotablecpt;c-420461 wroteWhere did you read about insurance premiums going up? I’d like to see that.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2021/08/08/coming-soon-for-the-unvaccinated-a-50-monthly-paycheck-deduction-from-your-employer/?sh=4b65259b47ae

torontotablecpt

No comment about the pic. @MrCaspan

compuease

I like this great discussion but will stay out of it for a while. In retort to Moose, I will not be attending any event or such optional things as casinos, poker games, indoor events unless all are vaccinated OR after all my grandkids are vaccinated, hopefully by year end.

leaving shortly for Montreal for my grandsons first doubleheader with Concordia tomorrow. FYI, completely outdoors, socially distanced. lol. Ok I am proud of him, can you tell? :) living vicariously..

MrCaspan

torontotablecpt;c-420471 wroteAnd I really didn’t like your comment about hospital rooms being given to those who took the vaccine and ohip should cancelled for those who didn’t take the vaccine. That’s dictator speak. Talking about being a social and charismatic person doing your duty cause you took a vaccine to prevent a virus which is survived by 98-% of people who get it. Take it easy sledge hammer!

Low bed counts is exactly the problem that we have been facing from day 1, there were so many COVID cases that it overwhelmed the hospitals there is not enough bed for anyone else vaccinated or not vaccinated that needed them. Here is an article from April form the GTA about the pediatric ward that had to shut down. Don't you think other people needed those beds and this could have been prevented if people just got the shot or stayed at home? I think yes, but you say but it's my right to not put something I don't want in my body. I 100% agree with you, you do have that right! SO to my point of OHIP, as a rational thinking human not a dictator I ask the question, if there is only 1 bed who deserves a bed more? The person that followed medical advice and did everything they could do to not get sick or the person that decided to ignore medical advice. IMO the person that deserves that bed is the one that didn't ignore medical advice. If that is being a dictator then I guess that is what I am you had the rights to refuse the vaccination but you also have to live with the consequences of that choice. I just think it's common sense. Maybe not but yes not cutting OHIP 100% but maybe making them have to deal with some of the bill. Because us as tax payers have to pay for this. Hope this explains the OHIP comment.

So now 'here' we are, well where is 'here'? Well 'here' is people don't want to take the vaccination and they have a right not to. Well how do we solve that problem because it is a problem numbers are still going up? We cannot violate the rights of the unvaccinated OR the vaccinated so we have to come up with ways to make sure both sides rights are protected (Remember you cant fight for rights and pretend the other side does not have them both sides are entitled to the exact same thing the un vaccinated are fighting for). So you don't want to put this vaccine in your body, fair, so how do we protect those that did decide to put this vaccine in their body from those that didn't? Well as a vaccinated or unvaccinated person you have the right to protect your friends and family and patrons and employees by exercising your rights to not allow who you believe to be unsafe people on my property or in my business. To this people retort, "that is discrimination" Problem with that statement is that it's not discrimination, refusing to service to you based on your vaccination status would be discrimination. I'm not refusing service, I am telling you to use our web site or call in and we will go get the stuff for you and meet you at the door. No service has been refused. So what is the issue? If you want the privilege to go into a store and shop and mingle then you have to follow their rules. If not use the web site and call in. No rights have been lost just privileges.

torontotablecpt;c-420471 wrote What happens if this vaccine makes everyone sick down the line and the hospitals are full because of them. Does that apply to those people too?

This is again a straw man argument and it's impossible to argue what ifs. But there is no facts supporting this as an issue. BUT lets pretend it happens, as a society we will deal with what ever decisions our past has made based on science and medical advice like we have always done. We will adjust learn and correct our course through life.

MrCaspan

torontotablecpt;c-420475 wroteNo comment about the pic. @MrCaspan

You said I look like Steve Carell, I take that as a compliment!!!

Bfillmaff

compuease;c-420450 wroteAs for people knowing my my medical history, bullshit, all it shows is one vaccine completion, nothing more. What the heck are we afraid of.

It's not the knowledge of it though, it's the enforcement of it. I have to carry this thing on me and submit to inspection... otherwise lose the freedom to move around. That's a precedent that will never, ever, be worth it.

And next it will be "your current vaccine status is not as effective as this new one, book your 10th booster shot to proceed."

compuease

Oh come on, that is wayyyyy over the top.. This is not Germany circa 193x....

MrCaspan

Bfillmaff;c-420479 wroteIt's not the knowledge of it though, it's the enforcement of it. I have to carry this thing on me and submit to inspection... otherwise lose the freedom to move around. That's a precedent that will never, ever, be worth it.

You will only lose the ability to go into shops or public spaces that enforce it. It's kind of an overstatement to say you will loose the freedom to move around. It's the world we live in to make sure no rights are taken away. be careful what you wish for!

But I get what you are saying though!

torontotablecpt

compuease;c-420480 wroteOh come on, that is wayyyyy over the top.. This is not Germany circa 193x....

How it starts big guy.

torontotablecpt

MrCaspan;c-420477 wrote
torontotablecpt;c-420471 wroteAnd I really didn’t like your comment about hospital rooms being given to those who took the vaccine and ohip should cancelled for those who didn’t take the vaccine. That’s dictator speak. Talking about being a social and charismatic person doing your duty cause you took a vaccine to prevent a virus which is survived by 98-% of people who get it. Take it easy sledge hammer!
Low bed counts is exactly the problem that we have been facing from day 1, there were so many COVID cases that it overwhelmed the hospitals there is not enough bed for anyone else vaccinated or not vaccinated that needed them. Here is an article from April form the GTA about the pediatric ward that had to shut down. Don't you think other people needed those beds and this could have been prevented if people just got the shot or stayed at home? I think yes, but you say but it's my right to not put something I don't want in my body. I 100% agree with you, you do have that right! SO to my point of OHIP, as a rational thinking human not a dictator I ask the question, if there is only 1 bed who deserves a bed more? The person that followed medical advice and did everything they could do to not get sick or the person that decided to ignore medical advice. IMO the person that deserves that bed is the one that didn't ignore medical advice. If that is being a dictator then I guess that is what I am you had the rights to refuse the vaccination but you also have to live with the consequences of that choice. I just think it's common sense. Maybe not but yes not cutting OHIP 100% but maybe making them have to deal with some of the bill. Because us as tax payers have to pay for this. Hope this explains the OHIP comment.

You are setting a precedence that will have dire repercussions on this country and the world. Thank goodness we have triage protocols.

Don’t talk about ohip please. for all those smokers and over weight people because they choose to smoke and eat poorly. No bed for you ever.
Theyre cutting out some eye services now because not enough $$

compuease

torontotablecpt;c-420482 wrote
compuease;c-420480 wroteOh come on, that is wayyyyy over the top.. This is not Germany circa 193x....
How it starts big guy.

Also how paranoia starts.. no disrepect meant... Has some similarities to trump cult mania...

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