Consequence of the Big Blind Ante

Bfillmaff

TeezNutzAK;417224 wroteAs the game evolves then so should the rules (imo). How can a player who is knocked-out of a side-pot be placed lower than a player who is eliminated on the main pot if the same hand? It doesn't make any sense. Don't care about what TDA says you rule nits :p

I think maintaining simplicity is more valuable though.

Also, everyone has an equal chance of being in this situation, so nothing unfair about it as long as the rule is clear.

You can also beat the odds by simply not busting out!

moose

TeezNutzAK;417224 wroteAs the game evolves then so should the rules (imo). How can a player who is knocked-out of a side-pot be placed lower than a player who is eliminated on the main pot if the same hand? It doesn't make any sense. Don't care about what TDA says you rule nits :p

Three people remain at the final table of the WSOP.

A 50 million
B 25.7 million
C 25.1 million

Prize payouts are (using last year's WSOP)
$10m
$6m
$4m

B is in the BB, A is the SB and C is the button and and the current level is 500k/500k/250k. B can post the ante in the BB and will still have more chips left than C. Uh oh, before the first riffle of the deck the level changes to 1m/1m/500k. B posts and the hand plays out. B&C go all in and are called by A and A wins the pot with his favourite hand 72o when the board runs out 77722.

In this fantasy hand, 13cards has taken over Jack Effel's job. He waits until the hand is over and announces, we are subtracting the ante from B's stack at the beginning of the hand and since B and C were eliminated on the same hand C is awarded second place.

Fundamental concept of poker is that the players actions ALONE determine the ranking of the players.

You think B should lose 2 million dollars because of a level change? Are level changes somehow skill related?

No as per the definition of the start of a hand B started the hand with more chips than C. Blinds and antes are posted AFTER the first riffle. The hand must be played to completion before any ranking of the players can change. If C folds, and A raises and B folds, then after the hand the chip counts will be:

A 51 m
B 24.7 m
C 25.1 m

The actions of the players have changed the relative chip stacks. You can not change the rankings of the players DURING the hand. The hand must be played out first. Their positions at the table and whether they are posting the ante is irrelevant to the chip stacks at the start of the hand.

Now C is in the BB and regardless of the ante, C is ranked above B, as the ante is posted AFTER the start of the hand. There is no "consequence" of the BB ante. Chip rankings remain the same regardless if there are NO antes, INDIVIDUAL antes or a BB ante.

Here is the unofficial final table from last year's WSOP
Seat Player Country Chip Count Big Blinds 1 Hossein Ensan Germany 169,500,000 212 2 Nick Marchington United Kingdom 43,200,000 54 3 Dario Sammartino Italy 39,900,000 50 4 Kevin Maahs United States 39,200,000 49 5 Timothy Su United States 23,100,000 29 6 Robert Heidorn Germany 13,000,000 16 7 Zhen Cai United States 44,500,000 56 8 Garry Gates United States 102,400,000 128 9 Milos Skrbic Serbia 27,000,000 34 10 Alex Livingston Canada 13,000,000 16 This table was redrawn at level 36 800k/800k/400k

There is only 700k between seats 3 and 4. What if Dario had drawn the BB when the final table was formed? Should a random draw have the potential to affect his ranking? Does he somehow lose $800k by simply drawing the BB? Is a random draw skill based?

No. If Dario had drawn the BB, the hand must be played out first before any change in the chip rankings are calculated. Only the actions of the players can change the rankings of the players.

TeezNutzAK

All good information but, like I said, as the game evolves then so should the rules - which players must adapt to. Is this debatable? Absolutely. But just because "this is the way it's always been defined" doesn't mean that it shouldn't be updated.

Sort of OT- also, imo, the BB Ante shouldn't be as large as the BB when playing with short table (say 5 or less?). Is this handled universally for most large tournaments or is it all over the map?

Falloon

Initially some casino's would make the ante equal to the small blind for the final table or two, when the number of players dropped below 6.

Since then most have switched to keeping the ante equal to the big blind throughout the entire tournament for consistency.

Remember that the idea of any ante is to stimulate action, and making the amount equal to what it was when individual player antes were used is not required to accomplish the goal.

DataMn

OK... just to throw a fly in the ointment, and to possibly get to the crux of why a change might be needed.

At the WSOP, or WPT, every stack is known before the hand, but that is not what happens in most tournaments.

What does happen, in most cases where stack size is important, is that the stacks are counted when the hand is over.

If you do still count the BB Ante to be a part of someone's stack who is responsible for remembering that the antes need to go back into the BBs stack?

Is it the player? Is it the dealer?

Where this might be important:

A tournament occurs. Three players are left. They get it in, and the player on the button (who has both of the other players covered) wins the hand.

They count down the stacks of both of the other players. Player A, in the small blind, has 500 more chips than Player B. He/She is awarded 2nd place money.

On the way have Player B, who was in the big blind, realizes that they paid a BB ante of 1000 in the hand.

Is Player B at fault, since they did not tell the dealers/floor to include their BB ante in the count, or is the casino responsible and should make up the difference in prize money?

MrCaspan

I love this discussion!

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