Consequence of the Big Blind Ante

13CARDS

trigs;417136 wroteJust curious what happens in the case of two decks being used or an automatic card shuffler? The riffle is then taking place before the last hand has finished.

When hand shuffling one deck the first riffle starts the hand. When using two decks and/or a machine shuffle, the cut of the shuffled cards starts the hand.

BlondeFish

When using an automatic shuffler machine, the hand begins with the push of the shuffler button, not at the cut. See TDA Rule #23.

13CARDS;417137 wroteWhen using two decks and/or a machine shuffle, the cut of the shuffled cards starts the hand.

trigs

BlondeFish;417203 wroteWhen using an automatic shuffler machine, the hand begins with the push of the shuffler button, not at the cut. See TDA Rule #23.

Well if that's the case, that causes issues.

moose

AFAIK the shuffle begins automatically when the deck is inserted and the lid closes. The light turns green when the deck is shuffled. Pressing the shuffler button extracts the deck which is not done until the previous hand has concluded.

Gogie

Without giving this too much thought I've come up with a proposal: why not take a simple approach and instead of determining when a hand starts and using that as a "defining" moment, decide when a hand finishes and using that as the "determining" moment? Since pushing the pot to a player seems to be a pretty definitive point in a hand why not use this as the point in time when one hand ends and the next hand effectively begins. Stack sizes as of that precise moment can be easily determined and used for determining finishes where more than one player is eliminated in the next hand. Does this make any sense?

Monoxide

i love big blind ante. alto i have no real input on this, how is it done online? does it count the ante toward your stack if you are all in?

studog

Gogie;417206 wroteWithout giving this too much thought I've come up with a proposal: why not take a simple approach and instead of determining when a hand starts and using that as a "defining" moment, decide when a hand finishes and using that as the "determining" moment?

I posted above; a couple of my games do this...

Gogie;417206 wroteSince pushing the pot to a player seems to be a pretty definitive point in a hand why not use this as the point in time when one hand ends and the next hand effectively begins. Stack sizes as of that precise moment can be easily determined and used for determining finishes where more than one player is eliminated in the next hand. Does this make any sense?

...we use a different point: when betting action is concluded for a hand, the next hand is deemed to have begun. That way, if a multi-way all-in takes a while to deal out and resolve, everyone else at the table doesn't get penalized for no reason.

compuease

I kinda like the ideas that studog and gogie have put forth, they make sense to me.

Card Dead

Still doesn’t answer the question of whether or not the anyes shoyld be considered part of a player’s stack or not.

Regardless of when the hand technically begins, this is still the main point of contention.

compuease

Card Dead;417211 wroteStill doesn’t answer the question of whether or not the anyes shoyld be considered part of a player’s stack or not.

Regardless of when the hand technically begins, this is still the main point of contention.

Personally I think they should. Your stack size should be considered as what you ended the last hand with. As long as everywhere uses the same rule then we are good. It should be a standard rule, not set by each individual room.

moose

Antes are part of the players stack before the hand begins so yes they should be included in determining ranking should the BB and other players be eliminated on the same hand.

13CARDS

13CARDS;417125 wroteWhat if we work backwards.
Why was that rule even needed before?
What was it indicating?

I suggest it was explaining that the player with the larger stack gets the higher finish because that player was never at risk of elimination.

Maybe the rule should have always said:
""In the event of multiple Players being eliminated during the same hand when prizing is to be decided by the order of elimination, ...if both Players are on the same table, the Player not at risk of elimination by the other at the start of the hand would receive the largest prize."

That wording would cover both the old way (individual antes) and the new way (Big Blind Ante) and redefining the start of the hand would NOT be neccessary.

All of the posts about changing the start of the hand really made me look at this in other ways. Thank you to everyone that posted!!!!

Is that a better way to approach this???

I would appreciate some feedback on this post

compuease

13CARDS;417216 wroteI would appreciate some feedback on this post

I really like the idea that your stack size and thus the order of finish is determined by what you had at the end of the last hand. I also think that way we don't need to consider what is the starting point of the next hand, ie cut of the card, first riffle, etc. Does that not make sense?

moose

13CARDS;417216 wroteI would appreciate some feedback on this post

Needlessly confusing and unnecessary.

moose;417134 wrote It matters not who can take out who after the antes are posted. This is action that takes place after the hand has started.

Stacks are determined before the first riffle and not after.

The antes are posted after the hand has started.

compuease

moose;417218 wroteNeedlessly confusing and unnecessary.

Equally unnecessary..

Moose, you can be sort of a know it all at times, you realize that don't you?

DrTyore

compuease;417219 wroteEqually unnecessary..

Moose, you can be sort of a know it all at times, you realize that don't you?

Yea.. but, when he's right, he's right...

Mark

compuease

DrTyore;417220 wroteYea.. but, when he's right, he's right...

Mark

He's never wrong, ask him.... ;)

But I still like him... You? well...... Just kidding son..

moose

compuease;417219 wroteEqually unnecessary..

Moose, you can be sort of a know it all at times, you realize that don't you?

Only positive feedback is allowed?

Just read the TDA rules.

13cards is inventing problems that don't exist. His invented problem exists after the hand has started. This is why, by rule, the stacks are determined at the start of the hand and why a definition for the start of the hand exists. Stacks after the antes are posted is irrelevant because the hand has already begun.

Bottom line: follow the TDA rules for the definition of the start of a hand and there is no "consequence of the BBA". It is a made up problem invented by 13cards. There is no effect to the rankings between using individual antes or a bba if you stick to the accepted definition of the start of a hand. This entire thread is pointless.

GetBlaked

Is there a limbo between hands where time isn't counted towards the previous hand or the next one?

TeezNutzAK

As the game evolves then so should the rules (imo). How can a player who is knocked-out of a side-pot be placed lower than a player who is eliminated on the main pot if the same hand? It doesn't make any sense. Don't care about what TDA says you rule nits :p

« Previous Page Next Page »