How do I play this spot?

Irunit4times

I will agree to disagree with you. If I'm in the BB and I have any history with the SB I.e. I've played with them since the beginning of day 2 right up to the bubble I will have a good feel for the players tendencies. And if I'm in the BB and I have seen the SB playing scared I'm going to put a lot of pressure back on the SB whenever he raises into me and I have a hand I can reasonably play back with. Of course there will be many hands I will just outright fold to the SB but a lot of suited face card Ax Kx Qx or Jx combos I will rejam as well as middle suited connectors as well as 22+ and all strong 2 face card combo hands and expect a fold by this player 90% of the time. If player stays more balanced this is not as much a possibility to exploit as he has shown he is not scared to call it off or call it off lighter in a position that allows for it and will go for the double up rather than squeaking into the money. The last week these players are very apparent and were exploitable everywhere. He even admits that it would have been his biggest cash and basically straight up admitted he was playing a bit scared. So that said it would be a great time to exploit such a player who opens 2x to 2.5x wtv his typical raising range is.

I have also seen many many times these same players will photograph their weaker hands in these positions by raising a slightly higher than usual amount to try to steal blinds even harder and not staying balanced on bet siding.

Now if sb opens and the BB flats it can be very exploitable by the SB since they get first action on the flop and if the flop favours their range paired or not a cbet will most likely take the pot down and if called on flop check it and fold to any further bets unless improving.

So now if I'm in the SB and I'm playing against a solid player that knows how to play very good short stack and bubble play, the best thing to do is to open jam to this player and remove his ability to exploit you and force him to wake up with a hand. At 17bb Ace rag is definitely a fold unless SB has shown to be a cannon. But given this conversation I'm going to assume SB table image is much tighter than a cannon. It's reasonable to assume that Ace rag will fold as they should but if it happens that Ace rag calls kq still has sufficient equity to run 5 cards in this spot for a chance to double up.

It would also be reasonable to assume that 22 and 33 even up to 55 would fold as they have enough blinds to pick a better spot to get their chips in on the bubble.

66 to 99 is a possible call and can go either way without question here but even if they call kq still has appropriate equity to run all 5 cards for a chance to double up.

So if I am now the SB player and I feel that the BB is a solid player and has shown the he is willing to rejam a late position standard open to a smaller than avg stack more than 12 to 14 bigs than I know he is doing it wider like I would expect him to do and my line would be to trap him by inducing with a slightly larger than usual open and expect to call it off when he jams. I Will also reasonably expect bb to fold in this spot as well but this line is trying exploit the BB who is jamming wider to exploit the SB. It's a trap I'm setting but this is best to run with much much stronger hands than kq.

Moral of the story for the SB is the least exploitable play in this spot is to open jam on the BB and force the BB to call it off and accept they are taking a flip as long as they don't wake up with a monster then their decision will be hard and most likely get a fold.

Anyways just my .02 but I will agree to disagree with you that 90% of what I'm saying is wrong.

P.s. online and live play here varies greatly.

Irunit4times

Oh and if you limp in SB and the BB checks then yes barreling the flop the favours your range is good but if you missed and bb calls you now must shut it down and fold to any further bets or reraising as stack sizes do not allow for much play post flop and should be getting it in with top pairs on reasonably dry boards or flopping high equity combo draws.

But if you miss flop it's also ok to check down or check fold unless you improve.

Irunit4times

Also, not only do I believe in that a lot, I can tell you that when Mike Leah walked onto my table 1.5 to 2 hours from the bubble, I watched him stack up from his 20bb stack to over average stack by exploiting these players in all the ways mentioned. And he never ever flipped as he put the pressure on all short stacks like him as well as any perceived weaker players just trying to cash. Once he got enough chips he would 3 bet in position virtually 4 to 5 hands per orbit 8 handed and was chipping up like a mad man because everyone tightened up. Downside is I lost a big big pot to him playing in position after I decided to play a flop and post flip with him and he actually had a nutted hand that time. But the frequency with which he was doing it at the table was virtually impossible given the frequency.

So I can tell you first hand I watched one of the best players in the world do exactly what I'm saying above and exploited many players at bubble time and chipped up huge at our table.

Take it for what it's worth as it is very dependant on stack sizes at the table players and their tendencies, your own perceived image and tendencies you should be aware of and then of course distance to the bubble and avg stacks and so on. There is no perfect plsy in any one scenario but the best plsy is the one that allows you to play against the players frequencies and tendencies in the least exploitable way and in a way that puts you in a spot to exploit the mistakes of others.

Richard~

There's a fine line between going for exploits and being straight up arrogant.

Anyway, you might from the sound of it be playing with some of the weakest fishes on the planet, fuck if I know but you're moving away from what OP asked. OP even describe himself as one of the scared players you so love to shit on but even he went to exploit disrespectful tendencies of players like you're describing in this spot. If you start jamming K9o and 89s here OP is printing money from you. The wider BB jams the happier OP will be and from the sound of it he doesn't do a lot of raise folding out of the SB here, certainly not so that you "expect him to fold 90% of the time" or some other major exaggeration. It's his limping range you want to attack not his raising range for this particular player

And as i've said over and over I really don't believe it's gonna be hard to realise the equity of your hand either if you get called pre or if you limp and get checked behind on. Especially when your hand is as easy to realise as KQ. If you wish to talk about SB raising ranges in this spot for a general player or how i myself would play it I can say with certainty that I can design ranges such that I won't be getting exploited no matter if I limp full range or have a mixed limping and raising strategy

Irunit4times

You sir may call it arrogant, I'm telling you how I would play that hand, why I would play it like that, and a first hand account of a player 1000x if I'm being modest better than me.

That said, who is being shit on? The entire game of poker is about exploiting weaker players, scared players. Read every book on bubble play and it will specifically say to find these players and target them in order to chip up. Exploit them. How do you feel I am shitting on anyone?

Maybe I was playing the worst fish ever, as my last post sums up it is so very situational and there is no one size fits all.

And if you'd like an example, in the 2500 I'm in the SB and it's folded around to the button who opens. I have him as a short to medium sized stack and will fold a lot when played back at. I look down on my turn and see A9s. That's my hand to 3 bet him here out of position. BB wakes up with a hand tanks for a bit and shows player to his left and folds. Button Insta folds once bb folds. Perfect that's what I was going after. I ask BB what he had that he folded and showed buddy on his left, he says I folded 1010 I just didn't want to play a pot with you. He was the largest stack at the table and I was second or third.

Moral is he had position and a great 4 getting hand but he mucked it. Once I knew that and player to his left verified, he was now a target to me regardless of his chips.

There is a lot of bad play at the fallsview and my eyes are finally opening to it. There are reasons why Mike Leah can make final table so often and I was lucky enough to watch it first hand.

Take it for what it's worth, and if you feel it is arrogant than so be it. I will once again agree to disagree.

Toronto Pimp

Irunit4times;408011 wroteYou sir may call it arrogant, I'm telling you how I would play that hand, why I would play it like that, and a first hand account of a player 1000x if I'm being modest better than me.

That said, who is being shit on? The entire game of poker is about exploiting weaker players, scared players. Read every book on bubble play and it will specifically say to find these players and target them in order to chip up. Exploit them. How do you feel I am shitting on anyone?

Maybe I was playing the worst fish ever, as my last post sums up it is so very situational and there is no one size fits all.

And if you'd like an example, in the 2500 I'm in the SB and it's folded around to the button who opens. I have him as a short to medium sized stack and will fold a lot when played back at. I look down on my turn and see A9s. That's my hand to 3 bet him here out of position. BB wakes up with a hand tanks for a bit and shows player to his left and folds. Button Insta folds once bb folds. Perfect that's what I was going after. I ask BB what he had that he folded and showed buddy on his left, he says I folded 1010 I just didn't want to play a pot with you. He was the largest stack at the table and I was second or third.

Moral is he had position and a great 4 getting hand but he mucked it. Once I knew that and player to his left verified, he was now a target to me regardless of his chips.

There is a lot of bad play at the fallsview and my eyes are finally opening to it. There are reasons why Mike Leah can make final table so often and I was lucky enough to watch it first hand.

Take it for what it's worth, and if you feel it is arrogant than so be it. I will once again agree to disagree.

alex...... just glad you are back posting here.

compuease

Toronto Pimp;408012 wrotealex...... just glad you are back posting here.

Can't even remember why he left... Getting old...

Richard~

I never said don't go for exploits. But be careful about going for exploits because doing so leaves you per definition unbalanced and exploitable yourself, from the sound of it you would've let it rip vs OP because OP had a goal to cash for the first time, and you would've ended up smacking yourself in the face with K8s from the BB because you knew OP wanted to cash badly. He would've baited in exactly the type of play you're praising, with a semi marginal hand nonetheless.

I don't think OP is very unbalanced from the SB here, sure he may be giving away too many walks, but there's absolutely nothing to indicate that he'd raise exploitably wide or not be aware that the BB would be tempted to rip it in so there's no way in hell you can claim that OP doesn't handle this particular BvB spot properly just because he doesn't jam and give you an easy decision to fold with hands you might otherwise spew

Irunit4times

So now, if op opens and gets 3 bet jammed on, now the tough decision is placed back on him. Therefore he must decide whether or not he is willing to take that flip. Even up against the hand mentioned k8s he is only 2 to 1. So he is going to lose one in every 3 runs. The point is that you want to put your opponent to making the decisions and not you, especially when your main goal is to cash. Because chances are if you make the decision you may make a bad fold or a bad call at different given times and that feels worse when you bust them getting it in and saying guy called it off for his tournament life with 66 and it held then I called a 3 bet jam with kq and missed.

Anyways I'm pitting my thoughts on this to bed. If you choose to point out how wrong you think you are I can accept that we disagree and choose not to indulge further. This is just my. 02 worth and can accept your opposing views as equally valid.

Goodnight

Richard~

if op opens and gets 3 bet jammed on, now the tough decision is placed back on him

This part is very overblown, the decision to put in your money was made the moment you put in the first 2.5x, you're not getting put in a tough spot, you wait and see if your trap works and then fistpump if you get it in as a 2 to 1 favorite, Or rather it's overblown for players who are competent. don't you think this is exactly what OP went for? Did he ever claim having to call when shoved on was a "hard call"?. There should be very very few "bet and see what happens" plays in poker. The only way you get put in a tough spots is if you open without a plan to call or fold because BB takes action. Then again k8s may have been a bad example because that hand should probably call a shove as well

Card Dead

Wow, this is an awesome debate. I think both sides are making some excellent points. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

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