Card Dead
Early Day 2 in the WPT Fallsview $2500 event. We're about 2 hrs away from the bubble.
I have 17BB in the SB and it folded around to me. I have KQ off. BB has 18 BB and he's been shoving medium-wide for a while in good spots. So I assume he shoves a wide range in this spot if he has an opportunity.
Eg. He 3-bet 30% of his stack vs a short stack who was all in for 5 BB and 2 deep stacks who had flatted the shove, and tabled A8 offsuit.
How do I play this spot, assuming my main goal is to cash?
UBetIFold
Not to be results oriented but I think just open ripping is good. He's def capable of folding some hands that are better and your probably doing ok when called. Also, pick up the blinds/antes uncontested the majority of the time which is ok.
Another option, this one is up to you, don't know what your pain threshold is, probably much higher variance but could yield more chips.
Is the limp, call if he jams. Leaving him open to bluffs this way and he will likely shove with a lot of hands you have dominated too.
Card Dead
Yes, I posted it this way to avoid the results bias. I found it to be a tough spot at the time and as I rehash it in my mind I have a different take on it every time I go over it.
UBetIFold
Card Dead;407951 wroteYes, I posted it this way to avoid the results bias. I found it to be a tough spot at the time and as I rehash it in my mind I have a different take on it every time I go over it.
Going back, and without knowing his hand, what are some options you like as to how to play that hand?
sn1perb0y
I disagree that he would fold better hands, maybe A2o,A3o,33s and 22s. If he is the aggro type like he described maybe not even those hands.
Now since the situation is close to the bubble, then probably limp with intention of folding to a jam is okay although probably the worst option in terms of chipEV. Rule of thumb, if you are going to call the jam, then jamming yourself is better, with some exceptions such as the guy is induced easily, but KQ isn't that strong so it wouldn't make sense to induce with that.
In general I would just 2.8x pre and play post, since its close to the bubble and people usually play fit or fold and also you take it down a decent amount. Since the guy is aggro/sticky just open jam, KQ is up there in your range and profitable to jam.
Imo vs that specific guy, i'd open jam, cross my toes and pray he didn't wake up with a good hand.
Card Dead
My first instinct was to shove and hope to pick up the blinds and Antes, but I had been doing that for hours (literally), and then I'm only getting called by a better hand. Problem here is I fold out a lot of his bluff range and open myself up to almost always only getting called by a better hand and never folding out a better hand, as he definitely calls with any ace or pair.
Then I thought limp, but I wasn't sure what I'd do when he shoved as I was sure he would.
Third option was to raise about 2.5x but then I have to call the shove.
Clearly, I can't just fold here, so, in sum, I don't really like any of the options. What I disliked least, was the raise-call option.
pkrfce9
Ha. Me posting strategy. 😀
If he calls a shove this is for his tournament life too. So I expect you'll fold out a lot of hands that he'd gamble with under different circumstances. And if you are called you are +ev with a lot of his calling range.
If you do a small raise it sounds like he'll jam and you'll have to call. So you are just giving up fold equity.
If you just call, it sounds like he might be inclined to raise or jam. Either way you are calling. You might have a chance for a stop and go play if he he doesn't jam PF.
The other option is a 4 or 5 BB raise and call a jam or jam on any flop. I don't know how often this works.
I already know the result so ya...
Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk
UBetIFold
For the record. When I say he's folding better to a shove. I don't mean he's ever folding hands like A10. But I think he could consider folding hands like A2-Maybe A5, likely 22, 33, possibly 44. Hands like this.
Edit: still think the best line, esp close to the bubble is to just open rip though.
djgolfcan
Yep, I shove this Blind vs blind all day long with only 17BBs. If he wakes up with a hand, so be it. So close to the bubble, he shouldn't call with a marginal hand.
ReefAquarium
Card Dead;407948 wrote
How do I play this spot, assuming my main goal is to cash?
LOL at me giving tournament advice.
Your goal should not be to cash. Your goal is to maximize equity.
I open shove against his random hand here.
Card Dead
Since I've never cashed in a major tournament, and the min cash would be my biggest cash ever, I'm ok with min cashing this event. That said, I felt maxing equity in this spot was the best path to geting to the money.
So I ended up just raising to 2.5x, because if he shoves, I'm now crushing a much bigger part of his range than if I shove and he calls. He did indeed shove with 66. I called and didn't improve.
Now I know that my first instinct was probably right and I should have jammed, but in the end, I'm going broke here either way I played it as this guy is never folding 66 in that spot, but I wasn't sure if it was a punt or not.
Also, I had a boatload of medium pairs in this tournament (like 20) and every flop had 2 overs and I never made a set, so I'm a little pissed that the board ran out small when I needed the overs. But that's just how I run most of the time.
Thanks for the input. It was very helpful.
Mojo1312
New to the forum. Table dynamics, blind level, time to next jump, and average chip stack size is useful information.
This hand as described, plays itself. Villain is never folding pocket sixes heads-up in this spot. The question is whether to jam or fold, because Hero has decided he is going to call a shove if he raises pf.
Richard~
I want to quickly add my two cents as well.
You say you're raising to induce and you've picked a fine hand to do so with. What you do want to ask yourself tho is what you would do with AA KK AK AQ or 1010, if you raise to induce with those as well you can't shove as many hands since you've taken out many of your best hands.
Another strategy to consider which I play around this stacksize is to limp jam instead of raising pre myself, I think that realistically will widen his range more than if you raise pre if he's aggro
Card Dead
Mojo1312;407968 wroteNew to the forum. Table dynamics, blind level, time to next jump, and average chip stack size is useful information.
This hand as described, plays itself. Villain is never folding pocket sixes heads-up in this spot. The question is whether to jam or fold, because Hero has decided he is going to call a shove if he raises pf.
Agreed, this specific hand does pretty much play itself. My uncertainty is in whether it's a good move to get it all in here, not knowing what V has at the time, and if so, what's the most profitable way to do so - limp, raise, or open shove?
Card Dead
Richard~;407969 wroteI want to quickly add my two cents as well.
You say you're raising to induce and you've picked a fine hand to do so with. What you do want to ask yourself tho is what you would do with AA KK AK AQ or 1010, if you raise to induce with those as well you can't shove as many hands since you've taken out many of your best hands.
Another strategy to consider which I play around this stacksize is to limp jam instead of raising pre myself, I think that realistically will widen his range more than if you raise pre if he's aggro
this was exactly what I was thinking of at the time. If I have any of those hands, I'm 2.5 x-ing against this guy as I don't want to limp and give him a free flop on the off chance he checks behind.
When you say limp-shove, are you referring to preflop assuming he just raises or on the flop assuming he checks, or both, and do you call if he shoves?
westside8
First instinct is stick it in. Think about it and read through thread, limp shoving isn't the worse if you expect him to raise a high % of the time you limp. But I probably would lean towards doing that with Ax type hands instead of your two broadway cards since you now block an ace (maybe not A6-A9, but def A2-A5, AT-AK).
The lower variance play IMO is just jamming in pre. Unless he's someone that understands shove/fold/call range very well, he's going to be making some mistakes folding hands he shouldn't be. Your shove range realistically should be super wide here as well if you're looking at it from a pure equilibrium perspective.
Richard~
I wouldn't worry about him checking behind if you limp, if that happens you take a flop as a big equity favorite. Personally I'm limping my full range here, that way I get away with playing my J7s and i can easily adjust the hands I jam over a raise depending on how many hands I perceieve villain to be raising vs my limp. As a baseline I'm probably jamming about 3/4 or the hands I can profitably jam pre, call maybe a little bit wider than I can profitably jam and fold the rest, something like that
Irunit4times
17 bb in the small with kq into an 18 bb stack near the bubble is an instant shove. Several reasons.
1. If the player is solid and plays to win, doesn't care about squeaking into the money an open 2 or 2.x raise is going to be so exploitable because if I see you playing scared I'm going to 3 bet jam on you with as low as 65 suited and make you call it off. Which most times your not going to and if you do I still have good equity against calling hands.
Option 2. The only time I'm opening on this player is if I think he is the player listed above and knows to exploit this situation. Therefore I go slightly above standard open size, ex. Your standard open size is 2.2x then I'm opening 2.8x this spot to induce his bluff shoves. This is only a good spot with nutted hands and if you do this with kq suited you now must be prepared to accept the following, you've committed to calling it off and your a. Behind slightly, completely crushed or 60 40 most spots or less.
So my point is by open jamming sure he may wake up with a calling hand and A3 etc may look good there for bb, it is in fact a fold in this spot on bubble. And if he calls you have great equity to double up which should be the goal here.
If he also calls it off with 77 and lower he is flipping virtually 5050 for his tournament life and you've made him make that decision not you. And you have good equity to win.
The goal at bubble is to make the other person make the mistake and if you see someone make a mistake to exploit them in order to chip up. His stack size is the perfect example.
That said I'm open jamming all nutted hands on him all the way to 10 9 suited as he's more likely folding and every once in a while he's gonna wake up with a nutted hand and you should at least have a decent amount of equity jamming hands like 10 9 s j 10 s etc.
You will get knocked out time to time, most times you will pick up the blinds and antes and a few times your going to double up. Odds are in your favour to open jam this spot.
Irunit4times
Also third option is to be passive, limp fold to a jam to be less exploitable as your only completing the blind and less value for him to just rip it in. If he checks behind play semi passive out of position unless flopping k high rainbow brick board. Be ready to fold single pairs to 3 bet jamming hands against you or check jam on him when flopping 2 pairs or some sick combo draws. Example flop of 10 j 3 rainbow or 2 flushing to your k or q and backdoor flush draws. Those up down 2 over card and back door second or third nut flush redraw should be check jamming on him on the flop. But once you flat pre and take the passive line be prepared to play passive and fold post flop unless flopping seriously strong hands as the bb can have any 2 cards and single paired hands have very very little equity in this spot against opening and getting jammed on and calling it off.
Richard~
2 or 2.x raise is going to be so exploitable because if I see you playing scared I'm going to 3 bet jam on you with as low as 65 suited and make you call it off.
I disagree with some of what you just wrote but this part right here, that's the whole argument of raising to induce even though it doens't allow you to play as many hands. It's only going to be exploitable if your opening range is unbalanced, so make sure it's not and you're good.
And also folding is out of the question, limping and folding to a jam is the most exploitable thing I've heard all day, not only can you now not play J7s in any realistic way so you end up giving him a bunch of walks but you're also folding out a hand with a ton of equity vs villains jamming range, a hand that even dominates a good part of it.
There is some merit in jamming and hoping to fold out A3o, realistically you're never folding out 44+ unless villain is super terrible so the range you're attmpting to bluff out is basically weak aces and 22-33 which seems extremely thin to me. Again, limping is not the only way to go, but if you do you're not playing passively postflop, if the flop favors your range, most importantly your actual range but also important to consider your percieved range then you do a bunch of betting and double barreling and if you do flop a top pair on any reasonable board you're never ever folding unless you really want to give away your money. Oh and also if we get it in vs 65s we stand up, fistpump and run around happy