Jian Ghomeshi canned from CBC

Kristy

I'm sure Milo won't be the only one who wonders why I am so upset about this victim bashing or attacking. I hope this pre-emptive post will help.

There are lots of wonderful, sensitive, men in the world...
For the most part, even though the "logic" may be sound --it just can't reflect the true depth of the emotional burden attached.

It is probably like my understanding of what a black person faces with racism. I can empathize, but I'll never truly "get it".

I have that tough-as-nails, in-your-face constitution and even I have been truly shaken by much less sexual harassment/assault than the abuse these women have likely suffered. Victims feel shame, self-blame, and fear. Fear of the backlash, fear of being called cowards, liars, having to deal with the whole, "look at how she's dressed" world. Most, in my experience, aren't able to pull the Kristy, "fuck that dickwad" mentality, and move onward and upward. They suffer deeply, and all because they were the VICTIM of such a truly heinous violation.

I'm all for hilarious discussion of Gimp masks, thought provoking conversation about BDSM, the precedent in employment law and possible outcomes, or we could share our safe-words (Mine's Vanilla Ice), or speculate about other poster's (Startles' is probably "logical inconsistency")

But, I can't stand by if we're gonna kick victims while they're down.

GTA Poker

I am not taking any side, but offering this bit of info for both Milo's and Kristy's opinion:

When I was in vet school at Guelph I lived with 3 other guys. This was before cell phones. One Sunday morning the police parked in front of out townhouse and proceeded to take me into the police station...fingerprinting, photos, being audio taped and accused. They aggressively accused me (not questioned me) of stalking a stripper at the Guelph strip club (can't recall the name of it) and making phone calls to her home...I believe they even told me that I had threatened to stab her. All of this on the evidence of her calling my house and hearing my voice then stating to the police that I was the person calling her from the landline.

It was not me.

I had and have never been to any strip club in Guelph.

I had and have never met nor seen/heard of this woman in my life.

I had and have never spoken to of called the number the police were insisting that I had called repeatedly.

I had to go through the stress of contacting my father and hiring a criminal lawyer for thousands of dollars to have this thing thrown out after having it hang over my head for months while I was studying for 10-15 or so final exams. Combine with the stress of never becoming a vet after years of study if found guilty. I don't recall exactly, but I think the police even came and pulled me out of class once.

There is no perfect system when it comes to serious offenses like abuse. Things like this could be handled in a better manner, no?

I had forgotten about this...sometimes I think I've had too many life experiences:)

Kristy

That is truly awful, Dave. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

I hope this won't seem argumentative, but not attacking the victim doesn't mean you are attacking the accused.

If we don't call those women cowards, we aren't sending hate mail to Ghomeshi.

Naw'mean

GTA Poker

Kristy;385313 wroteThat is truly awful, Dave. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

I hope this won't seem argumentative, but not attacking the victim doesn't mean you are attacking the accused.

If we don't call those women cowards, we aren't sending hate mail to Ghomeshi.

Naw'mean

From a public perspective, possibly.

But from the legal side someone is always being attacked, no?

Kristy

Not unless PFC is a court of law and we're the jury?

DrTyore

Those last two statements are very true.

Mark

kwsteve

GTA Poker;385311 wroteI am not taking any side, but offering this bit of info for both Milo's and Kristy's opinion:

When I was in vet school at Guelph I lived with 3 other guys. This was before cell phones. One Sunday morning the police parked in front of out townhouse and proceeded to take me into the police station...fingerprinting, photos, being audio taped and accused.

This isn't quite the same situation though. Ghomeshi hasn't been charged with a crime and might never be charged with a crime. Unless the accusers agree to testify, even in a closed court, I don't see how he will be.

But that doesn't mean the CBC can't sever ties with him. They have the right to not be associated with someone who has these rumours swirling around them. And the rumours have been swirling for years; that's why the Star did the investigation in the first place.

GTA Poker

kwsteve;385338 wroteThis isn't quite the same situation though. Ghomeshi hasn't been charged with a crime and might never be charged with a crime. Unless the accusers agree to testify, even in a closed court, I don't see how he will be.

But that doesn't mean the CBC can't sever ties with him. They have the right to not be associated with someone who has these rumours swirling around them. And the rumours have been swirling for years; that's why the Star did the investigation in the first place.

So what is the legal status of all this? The woman still has not filed charges?

kwsteve

GTA Poker;385339 wroteSo what is the legal status of all this? The woman still has not filed charges?

Not to my knowledge. He has only been fired by CBC. No charges yet; I'm not even sure that police are even involved.

Kristy

The womEn. Three of them, as far as I know.

moose

Marv Albert was not fired until after he was proven guilty. This will never go to court and instead we will be on the hook for millions in an out of court settlement because the CBC will never win without this becoming a criminal case.

Kristy

Also, I'm losing the battle to keep calm now that Compuease has logged in twice.

Wtf is this? Milo's allowed to call victims of rape and assault cowards, and infer that their veracity would "have more weight" if they told their stories in the way he thinks they should? Where they would have to be subject to more questioning, scrutiny, exposure...

And all for naught...since it will never make them UN-raped.
This is fucking sick.

compuease

I sent my reply to you via PM as you may not like it. However aren't we jumping the gun a little here.

Oh and I have a life other than here... :mad:

Kristy

Jeff, I'm truly disappointed in you.
Having a life is fine.
Logging in twice and reading T8's thread instead of responding to the reported posts is not doing your job as mod.

And PMing me to tell me that you want to wait and see if the women seek financial remuneration is offensive on the HIGHEST level.

Since women can't be taken at their word. Here is the excerpt.

compuease wrote For heavens sakes, I would like to know why none of the 3? of them ever reported anything wrong before he was "outed". There has to me more to this from what I see, do you really believe that all 3, or any of the 3 were innocent victims.
Before "blaming" anyone I would prefer to have more info before jumping to conclusions. If the women start looking for financial renumeration we will have our answer.
It could be that all 3 women are completely innocent but we just don't know at this point.

And I did not ask for your take on the situation. I demanded you remove something that is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable.
This forum can have me, or victim blaming. NOT both.

kwsteve

What I think happened (and I'm speculating based on the information that's been released so far) is that the women agreed to some sort of 'rough play' beforehand in text message or email. This is the evidence that Ghomeshi possesses.

When they got there he punched them in the face and went way further than they had expected. This is why they wish to remain anonymous.

Ghomeshi was probably careful to have some sort of consent in writing beforehand

compuease

Kristy;385352 wroteJeff, I'm truly disappointed in you.Having a life is fine.
Logging in twice and reading T8's thread instead of responding to the reported posts is not doing your job as mod.

And PMing me to tell me that you want to wait and see if the women seek financial remuneration is offensive on the HIGHEST level.

Since women can't be taken at their word. Here is the excerpt.

And I did not ask for your take on the situation. I demanded you remove something that is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable.
This forum can have me, or victim blaming. NOT both.

As I am in you... Get off your damn high horse and think a little. No one here is anti woman, especially not me.. And there is a reason why they call it a PM you know. You took just an excerpt from my PM to you and posted it, not kosher by any stretch of the imagination.
As for having victim blaming or you, well that's your choice but I don't see it as victim blaming, only keeping an open mind which I will and usually do.
Your choice, you have left before, likely will again, the forum survives ad infinitum... I like having you here but sometimes you are a bit of a .....

Here is my entire PM to Kristy, since she posted just an excerpt I will post it in it's entirety for balance... P.S. I have had 2 aquaintenances accused of sexual assault in years past who were both proven innocent and in one of them the women was charged with something, can't recall the exact wording but she eventually plead to a lesser charge and received probation. It does happen you know.. All I'm saying is wait for the evidence to come out.
*******************************************
First of all some of us have business's to run and hadn't really read the thread until now, I might not of even read it at all other than you reporting Milo again and pm'ing me. I have no idea even who this guy is at all. Not my kind of show.

Now for my quick assessment. My opinon, albeit after a quick read, is that this is just Milo being macho and Milo being Milo. I do see a little of the anti feminism in his response but certainly not victim blaming. For heavens sakes, I would like to know why none of the 3? of them ever reported anything wrong before he was "outed". There has to me more to this from what I see, do you really believe that all 3, or any of the 3 were innocent victims.
Before "blaming" anyone I would prefer to have more info before jumping to conclusions. If the women start looking for financial renumeration we will have our answer.
It could be that all 3 women are completely innocent but we just don't know at this point.

PFC does not have to have a position and I am not in position to give it in any case.

moose

FYI the threat of leaving only works if anyone cares that you stay.

DrTyore

Milo;385257 wrotekwsteve . . . what has changed? I skimmed the link, as well as reading the egregious Heather Mallick on the subject today, but what in this case has really changed?

It still revolves around allegations that these women have made. Allegations which they did not even have the courage to make to the authorities.

An objective observer would ask why these women would prefer having their anonymous accusations aired in the media, as opposed to having their anonymous accusations aired in court?

Here's a significant problem I see...

You write in the last part that "an objective observer would..." and that part's fine. But literally the sentence just before it, you cite a lack of courage in choosing to go to the media vs. the police. That's not only a judgement filled statement, it's also silly. Perhaps their POV was that this needed to put the word out for women, that it needs to be talked about loudly and publicly. I don't know the facts, nor do you. You did however reveal your opinion.

Words have power Milo, and for someone that talks so much you should be more aware.

Mark

Hellmuth's Mole

After the initial shock, dismay and obligatory satirizing this whole story is becoming fascinatinger and fascinatinger.

Current thoughts include but are not limited to...

- Blaming the victims (even alleged victims) for not handling it the way you think it should be, is a non starter. Sorry Milo.

- Blaming the perp just because he's a man in a position of power is also not advisable. He was in fact the first to come out with anything more tangible than back alley whispers. Although unless it is put through a court proceeding no one will know the veracity of his version of events.

- Is there any precedent set as far as the legal limits of consent in BDSM? If I agree to something in which a "safe word" is applied for me to limit my exposure to untoward experiences, does that not mean that anything done before the utterance of such word is done with implied consensuality?

- If Ghomeshi does indeed have "proof", as he mentions, of the consensual nature of the relationship, what are the limits of that? What if he has a signed document that shows the complaintant as being open to rape scenarios? Could a person legally accept a "crime" against them? Could it actually exonerate someone of that crime in a court of law?

- Is the point above perhaps the reason that the victims have not come forward legally? Do they know that their previous actions in some way would undermine their own case against him?

- Taking a side at this point seems ridiculous. The only thing we KNOW is that CBC has severed ties. They haven't even stated that the series of unfortunate events that Ghomeshi has copped too is in fact the reason for dismissal.

I'm not usually one that gets any pleasure from watching public figures go down in flames but this particular case has some amazing possibilities. I'm thinking of starting a BAP to secure the movie rights.

compuease

Hellmuth's Mole;385357 wrote- Taking a side at this point seems ridiculous. The only thing we KNOW is that CBC has severed ties. They haven't even stated that the series of unfortunate events that Ghomeshi has copped too is in fact the reason for dismissal.

Most important point presented up to now.

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