How much value did I miss here?

Wetts1012

Also, back on the topic of "as played" river. Id still like peoples advice on ranges that shove.

djgolfcan

Wetts1012;359304 wroteIf Im villain, I flat pre (even in 6 max) with 99/TT.

I also flat the 3b on the flop.

However Im less inclined to call another bullet on the turn, but would value call river.

But that is you, and most online players are not you.

Wetts1012

djgolfcan;359307 wroteBut that is you, and most online players are not you.

The point is you cant exclude these hands from the range. We cant just say villain only has qx. Of course we extract max value from qx by betting turn.

But how do we extract max value from villains entire range?

kwsteve

Wetts1012;359303 wroteBecause you can extract more value on the river from non Q hands.

IF a diamond doesn't come.

djgolfcan

Wetts1012;359308 wroteThe point is you cant exclude these hands from the range. We cant just say villain only has qx.

After he just flats the flop raise, we can. Unless he is THAT good to hold in the reins and not get it in on a flop that we've clearly shown we like. The majority of poker players are not taking this line with a set, the only hand we are worried about.

Wetts1012

djgolfcan;359310 wroteAfter he just flats the flop raise, we can. Unless he is THAT good to hold in the reins and not get it in on a flop that we've clearly shown we like. The majority of poker players are not taking this line with a set, the only hand we are worried about.

Fair, I think its a leak that we exclude all hands except qx. I think you lose value from all non q hands. I think its also a leak that you assume villain is not competent, even in a $8 MTT. Maybe 3-4 years ago, but not now.

Wetts1012

kwsteve;359309 wroteIF a diamond doesn't come.

If a diamond comes, we may get a wider range of calls on a river vbet - because having flushes in our range is highly unlikely (It looks alot more "bluffy").

Im also MORE inclined to call a river shove from villain if a random diamond falls.

kwsteve

Fair enough, Wetts. You're playing chess when most others are playing checkers. This guy had top pair, top kicker, flush draw and would have called anything so I think value was left on the table in this case.

Wetts1012

kwsteve;359314 wroteFair enough, Wetts. You're playing chess when most others are playing checkers. This guy had top pair, top kicker, flush draw and would have called anything so I think value was left on the table in this case.

Yes, against THIS SPECIFIC HAND, we lost value. Im not debating that. We get it in on the turn no problem 100% of the time when the cards are face up.

The point is, while playing, we dont know he has this hand, so we have to try to maximize the value we get from what the villain POTENTIALLY has.

moose

Has nothing to do with villain having the specific hand of AQ.

Rare is the villain who follows that specific line with 99-JJ, which is the only way hero's line adds value.

More likely is player who isn't going to fold a far wider range on turn and river.

hiphopopotamus

Villain is a lot of times calling the flop 3b with any hand in his raising range other than complete air. It's a small 3b and he has position for a lot of implied odds if he improves his hand. A lot of these hands are folding turn unimproved and these would be the hands we're trying to get value from on the river.

I don't get the thinking that we should auto-try to get 75bb in after putting in 2bb preflop just because it's 6max. It's not like concepts like wa/wb and pot control don't apply when you're playing shorthanded.

hiphopopotamus

kwsteve;359309 wroteIF a diamond doesn't come.

Why are we weighing backdoor flushes so heavily in his range? Obviously they're in there but it's not something that should make you change your river play significantly.

kwsteve

hiphopopotamus;359334 wroteWhy are we weighing backdoor flushes so heavily in his range? Obviously they're in there but it's not something that should make you change your river play significantly.

I get that you guys are all theoretical and shit. But there are two diamonds on the board. You've got an over pair. You don't want to make him pay for a draw in case a diamond hits on the river? In this case you would have lost the pot.

Better to win a small pot than to lose a big one.

Wetts1012

kwsteve;359348 wroteI get that you guys are all theoretical and shit. But there are two diamonds on the board. You've got an over pair. You don't want to make him pay for a draw in case a diamond hits on the river? In this case you would have lost the pot.

Better to win a small pot than to lose a big one.

Because based on the action on the flop there are very few combinations of diamonds that villain can have here (and likely less than that because AKdd is not likely).

Villain can have QJ+dd, and 56dd. Thats it!

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