How much value did I miss here?

masterplan

PokerStars Hand #103462699041: Tournament #778171946, $8.00+$0.80 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (20/40) - 2013/08/31 5:05:07 ET
Table '778171946 29' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Tulivuori (1483 in chips)
Seat 2: 0930366488 (4897 in chips)
Seat 3: mihai_nbl (2942 in chips)
Seat 4: negator3 (2940 in chips)
Seat 5: pkratitsbest (3728 in chips)
Seat 6: lapin noita (2940 in chips)
Tulivuori: posts small blind 20
0930366488: posts big blind 40
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to negator3 [Kh Kd]
mihai_nbl: folds
negator3: raises 59 to 99
pkratitsbest: calls 99
lapin noita: folds
Tulivuori: folds
0930366488: folds
*** FLOP *** [4d 7s Qc]
negator3: bets 105
pkratitsbest: raises 215 to 320
negator3: raises 300 to 620
pkratitsbest: calls 300
*** TURN *** [4d 7s Qc] [8d]
negator3: checks
pkratitsbest: checks
*** RIVER *** [4d 7s Qc 8d] [8c]
negator3: bets 520
pkratitsbest: calls 520
*** SHOW DOWN ***
negator3: shows [Kh Kd] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
pkratitsbest: mucks hand
negator3 collected 2538 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2538 | Rake 0
Board [4d 7s Qc 8d 8c]
Seat 1: Tulivuori (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: 0930366488 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: mihai_nbl folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: negator3 showed [Kh Kd] and won (2538) with two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 5: pkratitsbest mucked [Qd Ad]
Seat 6: lapin noita (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

moose

2940-99-620-520=1701

Wetts1012

Not much, I like the line.

I mean, if the hand is faceup obv you stack the guy. But hes prob not stacking KQ or QJ there, and you protect against sets/56.

wp.

moose

?

2018 in the pot after river bet. Villian shoves. 3719 in pot and 1701 to call. Do you ever fold river?

Protect against sets and straights? MUTB. This is 6 max.

Wetts1012

moose;359263 wrote?

2018 in the pot after river bet. Villian shoves. 3719 in pot and 1701 to call. Do you ever fold river?

Protect against sets and straights? MUTB. This is 6 max.

The question was could he have got more value.

I argue that against villain range, the answer is no.

Against villain specific hand the obvious answer is yes.

My comments on hand protection is in regards to checking turn, which I think is better than betting turn.

Its certainly not a snap call if villain shoves river. AQ is the lightest he shoves here. He probably value calls KQ and QJ, and not many bluffs in the range based on flop texture.

hiphopopotamus

I like the turn check too. I'd make a much larger river bet though. I feel at these buy-ins almost any queen will call you after you check turn.

moose

I don't think a set flats a 3 bet on the flop so unless you specifically put villain on 56 why slow down turn. It's 6 max anyways so odds of 2nd pp go way down. From villains perspective for same reason, hard for villain to worry about set over set.

From his flat of the 3bet, villain is not folding ever, so divide chip stack into thirds, value bet turn and push river with an unfoldable amount of chips for maximum value. If you were actually going to fold to a villain shove you could do so on turn by making the same river bet on turn instead or check/fold to a villain turn flat, and villain river bet. But I would find that pretty laughable and uberweak in six max given the stack sizes.

Wetts1012

moose;359272 wroteI don't think a set flats a 4 bet on the flop so unless you specifically put villain on 56 why slow down turn. It's 6 max anyways so odds of 2nd pp go way down. From villains perspective for same reason, hard for villain to worry about set over set.

From his flat of the 4bet, villain is not folding ever, so divide chip stack into thirds, value bet turn and push river with an unfoldable amount of chips for maximum value. If you were actually going to fold to a villain shove you could do so on turn by making the same river bet on turn instead or check/fold to a villain turn flat, and villain river bet. But I would find that pretty laughable and uberweak in six max given the stack sizes.

Well, lets do some math then.

Give me the range of hands you feel shove river, given the flop and turn play.

I'll give you my range and we can compare notes.

moose

KK shoves after betting turn. That's my range.

Wetts1012

moose;359283 wroteKK shoves after betting turn. That's my range.

Great discussion. Thanks. Youve convinced me.

I'll talk to myself.

Most of the time we Vbet river and find a fold or a call. 99-JJ, QJ+ I assume simply flat our river bet and we win. Yay.

What hands shove river here? We can debate QJ+, but villain shows us in this hand that most are inclined to call for value and not turn their hands into bluffs (Theyre never shoving for value here).

So we're left with villain shoving nuts or air, and calling all value hands. Even with pot odds, villain has to have a ton of bluffs in his river shove range to make this make sense- and I just dont see that.

Wetts1012

moose;359283 wroteKK shoves after betting turn. That's my range.

Do you get more value out of 99-JJ by checking turn / betting river, or betting turn?

moose

The thread is about achieving maximum value. I simply can't conceive of a friendlier board for KK. If you can't find some way of getting all the chips in then you must be advocating to never get it all in with an unimproved overpair in 6 max. This is leaving tons of value on the table and in 6 max playing this way will let the blinds eat you alive.

There is no reads in op and without, I simply not going to put villain on some kind of crazy line where he flats a 3 bet, checks turn and shoves river. Odds of that are so low discussing a shove range is ridiculous. As I said before, if you are going to find a fold on the river then might as well bet turn and fold there or bet turn and then check/fold river if villain flats turn and bets river. It's the EXACT SAME THING, in fact you've shown more strength by continuing to fire and therefore even more likely behind.

Extracting maximum value is dividing up your chip stack in such a way that neither player can fold on river and then shove ranges be dammed. If villain has 56 so be it but to play it any other way in 6 max is MUTB syndrome to the extreme.

moose

Wetts1012;359291 wroteDo you get more value out of 99-JJ by checking turn / betting river, or betting turn?

What villain folds turn bet after flatting flop 3 bet?

kwsteve

A bet on the turn is mandatory in case the guy has two diamonds. You gonna let him draw for free with an overpair? Asking for trouble. Especially on Pokerstars. Missed a turn bet is all I'm saying.

Just noticed he had 2 diamonds. What's the reasoning behind not betting turn?

moose

Either villain is a good player or a bad player. Good player does not play 99-JJ for sets in 6 max by flatting preflop and flatting flop 3 bets. It's either in already or he has folded before turn. Bad player is not folding ever after flatting 3 bet flop if you divide your stack into unfoldable bets.

From good villain perspective what hand does hero have that villain beats that 3 bets flop, checks turn and bets river? I don't see how that adds value from anyone that wouldn't also call turn bet.

edit: oops 3 bet

djgolfcan

I'm with Moose on this one (he may now change his mind, lol). After betting the turn and just flatting the four bet, villain has exposed his hand as having a Queen. He may flat 77, to try and get value on the turn, but that's it.
If he calls the flop, he will call the turn and the river.

hiphopopotamus

What 4bet? There was just a small 3b. Don't think he necessarily is limited to top pair in his range.

Hand analysis is biased a bit I think based on results being shown.

Wetts1012

kwsteve;359299 wrote What's the reasoning behind not betting turn?

Because you can extract more value on the river from non Q hands.

Wetts1012

djgolfcan;359301 wrote If he calls the flop, he will call the turn and the river.

If Im villain, I flat pre (even in 6 max) with 99/TT.

I also flat the 3b on the flop.

However Im less inclined to call another bullet on the turn, but would value call river.

Wetts1012

moose;359300 wrote

From good villain perspective what hand does hero have that villain beats that 4 bets flop, checks turn and bets river? I don't see how that adds value from anyone that wouldn't also call turn bet.

99-JJ, AK are POSSIBLE. Im putting those in the range OTF, but you're correct, its weighted heavier towards nut hands.

You cant discount these hands out of the range though.