Live 1/2 NL

djgolfcan

I am in the BB with $375 in front of me with Ks Qd

2 limpers, then a raise from the big stack at table to $15
button calls, I call, UTG calls, rest fold

pot is $64

Flop is Kc Qh Js

I check. UTG checks, big stack bets $60, button folds, I call and UTG calls

pot is now $244

Some background. UTG is a nit after the flop. He won't play unless he has the nuts. I doubled though him once, I hit a straight on the turn and he couldn't fold his trips.

Big stack has played very solid and I have not seen him play any trash hands.

Turn is a 3d -

I check
UTG bets $60
Big Stack tanks and ends up just calling. Pot is now $364 and I have $300 behind.
Me : ?? What do you guys think I should have done ?

GTA Poker

djgolfcan;305169 wroteI am in the BB with $375 in front of me with Ks Qd

2 limpers, then a raise from the big stack at table to $15
button calls, I call, UTG calls, rest fold

pot is $64

Flop is Kc Qh <acronym title="JavaScript">Js</acronym>

I check. UTG checks, big stack bets $60, button folds, I call and UTG calls

pot is now $244

Some background. UTG is a nit after the flop. He won't play unless he has the nuts. I doubled though him once, I hit a straight on the turn and he couldn't fold his trips.

Big stack has played very solid and I have not seen him play any trash hands.

Turn is a 3d -

I check
UTG bets $60
Big Stack tanks and ends up just calling. Pot is now $364 and I have $300 behind.
Me : ?? What do you guys think I should have done ?

Call turn.

You said UTG is a nit after the flop, what is his range UTG preflop? No way I am ever folding for 60 into 364 with top 2 in this spot redrawing to the nuts even if it is a donk bet from a nit.

Raising is terrible here.

windbreaker

Why is raising terrible?

We are ahead of the big stack a high % of the time. Neither should ever have a set, and only A10 and 109 beats us. The turn utg bet is so small....why would he bet so small with the nuts. Unless there's history that he has this tendency....raising seems like the standard play, cause there's a lot of hands we beat that will/could call. Eg. AK, KJ, K10, QJ, Q10, AQ...

eeetee2011

windbreaker;305253 wroteWhy is raising terrible?

We are ahead of the big stack a high % of the time. Neither should ever have a set, and only A10 and 109 beats us. The turn utg bet is so small....why would he bet so small with the nuts. Unless there's history that he has this tendency....raising seems like the standard play, cause there's a lot of hands we beat that will/could call. Eg. AK, KJ, K10, QJ, Q10, AQ...

if the utg is a nit like op says then most of the hands you listed above arent in his betting range

windbreaker

Actually, I think it's more likely he has those types of hands than a straight. I need to like to have more history and his actual stack depth.

Like in the OP, we say that utg is a nit post flop, but how is he preflop. What hands does he play? How many hands does he play? Does he always call a raise after limping in? It makes a huge difference. We can have the laggest preflop player, and nittest postflop player. Or is he a nit pre and post flop.

Also, there's different variations of nits. We shouldn't classify all nits to be one of the same.

For this hand, we should think about things like:

- Does UTG ever limp-call preflop with A10? 109? AK? AQ? KQ? KJ? K10? Q10? QJ? (especially the suited cases). Does he even limp some of those hands to begin with? Wouldn't he raise?

- If he has a straight, why would he bet so small on the turn? If he short stacked...why doesn't he shove the flop?

I think it's a huge mistake to classify a player as a nit, and total ignore the situation. I think it's just much more likely that UTG has a pair+combo type hand than one of the two straights.

In addition, unless an A/J/10/9 comes on the river, I don't think you can fold to most bets on the river.

jdAA88

I'm flatting turn and prob check-calling a brick river

GTA Poker

jdAA88;305287 wroteI'm flatting turn and prob check-calling a brick river

This depends on sizing/evaluating river action, but is the best answer ITT by far for live 1/2.

djgolfcan

UTG will limp call a lot of raises, very loose, but will not continue post flop, without a monster.

GTA Poker

djgolfcan;305342 wroteUTG will limp call a lot of raises, very loose, but will not continue post flop, without a monster.

Please factor in that nits overvalue what they think are made hands post flop. I certainly put AT in his range, but I am paying to evaluate the river in this spot all day long.

djgolfcan

GTA Poker;305344 wrotePlease factor in that nits overvalue what they think are made hands post flop. I certainly put AT in his range, but I am paying to evaluate the river in this spot all day long.

I was 100% certain that I was behind and didn't want to put another $60 in the pot to draw to six outs, at best.

On show down, big stack showed AK - UTG had 9-T for the flopped straight.

Oh, and the river card................ was a King. FML.

Richard~

djgolfcan;305345 wroteI was 100% certain that I was behind and didn't want to put another $60 in the pot to draw to six outs, at best.

now you're just trying to piss cashgame players off :o

results oriented poker itt

GTA Poker

djgolfcan;305345 wroteI was 100% certain that I was behind and didn't want to put another $60 in the pot to draw to six outs, at best.

On show down, big stack showed AK - UTG had 9-T for the flopped straight.

Oh, and the river card................ was a King. FML.

I can't ever fold that spot given that you have 2 players who will potentially pay you off. UTG donk bet is typical nit trying to milk out the money for his cable bill, but I am highly doubtful he is folding the river.

What was river action?

BTW you are getting 60:364 = 16% on a call with 3-4 outs = 6-8% with implied odds on 2 players. I can never fold there.

PS: it's 4 outs at best.

altruist

I agree, it's definitely a call, considering you just said you stacked UTG last time because he couldn't fold his hand. I also like windbreaker's analysis, he could definitely have a hand like AK or KT, where he has top pair and a straight draw, and is betting for value.

Especially since he bet. You told me last time he flopped a set, and he let you get there.

Shipping is dumb as you have no fold equity, nit probably isn't folding, and has decent amount of outs against you even if you're ahead, and you want more money in the pot if you do draw out.

I don't see how you're possibly folding here. If he shipped it, that's a different story.

literation

I don't see where the nit stack size is identified itt?

djgolfcan

literation;305572 wroteI don't see where the nit stack size is identified itt?

Nit stack had about $800 in front of him. Big Stack - $1200

Cerberus

GTA Poker;305356 wroteI can't ever fold that spot given that you have 2 players who will potentially pay you off. UTG donk bet is typical nit trying to milk out the money for his cable bill, but I am highly doubtful he is folding the river.

What was river action?

BTW you are getting 60:364 = 16% on a call with 3-4 outs = 6-8% with implied odds on 2 players. I can never fold there.

PS: it's 4 outs at best.

Why... oh, I see. Yeah, 4 outs. Oops. I still say it's a call with all things considered.

Meistro

fold pre

Meistro

it's 4 outs at worst 35+ outs at best

compuease

Meistro;306543 wroteit's 4 outs at worst 35+ outs at best

Not to nitpick :) but it's 0 outs at worst.. lol..

Meistro

touche. you sir are the best kind of correct... technically