Optimal?

[deleted]

Reads: i think this is going to happen

edit: can be discussed as strat too

Poker Stars, $7.34 + $0.66 NL Hold'em Tournament, 50/100 Blinds, 8 Players

UTG: 2,072
UTG+1: 3,455
MP1: 1,815
JodaB. (MP2): 1,283
CO: 1,135
BTN: 2,015
SB: 2,725
BB: 1,380

Pre-Flop: (150) 8

dealt to JodaB. (MP2)
UTG calls 100, UTG+1 calls 100, MP1 folds, JodaB. raises to 725, 4 folds, UTG calls 625, UTG+1 folds

Flop: (1,700) 9

(2 Players)
UTG checks, JodaB. bets 558 and is All-In, UTG calls 558

Turn: (2,816) A

(2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: (2,816) T

(2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: 2,816 Pot
UTG showed Q 7 and LOST (-1,283 NET)
JodaB. showed 8 8 and WON 2,816 (+1,533 NET)

trigs

is this a turbo?
i'd probably push preflop.

[deleted]

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compuease

Certainly not optimal to me. You bet 2/3 of your stack pre? without pushing it all...??? Only thing worse imo is villians call, both pre and on flop..

Is this a question you are asking or was this a misclick?

kidcolt66

Why would UTG call after the flop with AK up is the question i have. Brutal

[deleted]

edited.

Richard~

if he's that wide it's probably optimal yes

[deleted]

ya so obv utg is an uber spewer. I think if i jam he folds q7s and alot of his range-not very profitable from me.

Hes limping like 70%+ im sure. If I had aces I obv would never shove just bump it up and get it in on any flop, and here i think i pretty much have aces compared to the way he plays, and he'll see a flop with almost his whole range.

I read in a husng book last night that suggested just because its +ev doesn't mean its optimal to make a small raise raise here and that maybe making a larger one is even more +ev.

So vs a player like this i think thats max value...unless he calls a shove pre ???

few players play in such a way i can do this though

djgolfcan

Stop getting fancy and just shove pre-flop. With that many limpers you want to push as may of them out as possible.

The terrible play of the other is just mind boggling, did he not know you were all in, regardless of the flop ?

Richard~

so what if they all call us pre? we're extremely likely to be ahead

[deleted]

djgolfcan;295718 wroteStop getting fancy and just shove pre-flop

generally i do

djgolfcan;295718 wroteWith that many limpers you want to push as may of them out as possible.

that is the motto of scared money imo. instead we want our opponent to call as many chips as possible with the weakest hand or range possible

djgolfcan;295718 wroteThe terrible play of the other is just mind boggling, did he not know you were all in, regardless of the flop ?

Its important to me that when i identify a spewtard..his chips go to me and not someone else....no doubt this player won't make it another orbit.

betrthanphil

how do you think it is more profitable to bet like that and give them the flop. just shove pre. when you think to much is when you do dumb things. not you but the general poker population. This is an abc shove pre, why complicate things?

Richard~

betrthanphil;295864 wrote This is an abc shove pre, why complicate things?

optimal? aka going supoer exploitative vs bad players

betrthanphil

i dont understand how this is optimal. Not even going to try to explain or go into detail. If you don't see whats wrong with this, theres no hope.....

Richard~

there's no hope unless i shove to attemt picking up 350 chips over pseudo shoving 88 vs a calling range that includes Q7 and probably 67s? either we pick up 350 chips 100% of the time or we pick up 1550 chips or lose 1300 chips so our equaty would have to be given by the equation

(1300+1550) * x + (-1300) * (1-x) > 1650
2850x +1300x > 2950
4150x > 2950
x > 71%

We obviously doesn win 350 chips 100% of the time but if we assume we're not folding out anything that have us beat by shoving over raising or raising over shoving we can just pick any arbitrary value for the calculation since these hands will react the same way no matter how we play it

Results suggest that we need to be deeper for this to be a good idea unless we expect to fold out some hands that outflop us which I don't see happening. As for the no hope part I simply don't believe you. Just cause some things aren't instinctive to me doesn't mean you're any better with that last crappy post of yours

"why do you think it's profitable to give them a flop? just shove pre cause that's how you do it, you're overthinking it and when other people than you overthink it they sometimes mess up. Again, you shove, why must you think too much when other people might make mistakes when they do zomg"

Even though you wrote something like that it makes it clear that you have this down to instinct, I don't. But we already knew that you are better than me and OP, it just annoys me that you seem to claim that "hopeful" would imply "accepts the basics even though they don't really understand what it is based on"

compuease

Interesting to hear what Vekked, et al say to this...

Richard~

my trusted math says that if we were 500 chips deeper this would've been optimal since we'd need a mere 55% vs our opponents range

betrthanphil

Instinct? its not instinct, its math, common sense, first grade abc poker, etc, etc. Explain to me how raising to 750 and basically giving 2 opponents a free roll on 550 is a good play Id love to hear it. People aren't paying attention as much as you think in these. people see the 750 raise but may not realize only the 550 back. If you shove you get the q7 to fold yes, but we also get other over card hand to fold as well. If you want to go result oriented by this idiot with q7 be my guest......woooooo this is an amazing play guys I'm gonna add it into my play book cause one time some donk with q7 called both pre and post flop and was way behind.....this has to me optimal. NOOOOO thats not how it works. Optimal plays are based on both math and experience seeing something work over and over and over again. This play would not achieve that. Why do we think cbet in position works so well. Because its proven to be a +ev play. Is there situations where you shouldn't cbet...of course but that comes down to more instinct and knowledge. This is not the case for this play.....this is always a shove or fold! plain and simple. Folding would be with certain reads on opponents or close to money bubble etc.

Richard~

it's not a freeroll if you have to pay 650 chips for it, what have you been smoking for the past couple of days?

There's no postflop play involved in either case. you commit both your stacks preflop and villain is just too silly to realise it, it's a question of do I want him to call with a wide range or not

Edit: This has nothing at all to do with being results oriented. the argument you try to impose at the end is just mindblowingly silly, "this is always a shove or a fold, because it is"

betrthanphil

There is post flop play, a guy can decide to pay the 750 with the idea that no matter what comes on the flop the other guy will shove the 550 therefore if he misses maybe he folds.....with have a mid pair, how do we want this type of action. I can maybe get behind this with kk or AA but even then any hand that will call the 750 will prob call the 1200.....and it is result oriented, how many people do you see doing this with q7? Ive been playing a long timeeeeeee low, medium and high stakes and I may have seen someone call an all in on flop with q high once. If you have more of a sample to show me that by all means show it. I think you guys are just arguing to argue when really you know this isn't optimal. Not gonna waste my time on this as its just going to get repeatitive from me. You can do and play however you won't, just telling you what I think/know. Do with it what you want.