AQ debate part 500: vs TAG reg......

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DennisG;287992 wroteTurbo or non...what does it matter? Is this the second or third time I have caught you implying there might be different strat for turbo vs. non...??

:err::baffled:

the strategy is to play optimally that doesn't really change .....what changes are the opponents ranges...in turbo vs regular....what i always was saying to you is that mathematically it shouldn't change.....but if people feel they need to ship kjo pre first hand....then calling with aqo or such is correct....

mathematically being a turbo shouldn't change anything but it does because people freak out and think they have to accumulate chips rather than ev......

we call because its +ev not because its a turbo structure so and we need chips fast...

i do think a little differently about spots than before but what i was always referring to that you keep bringing up i still stand by.....we can use a calculator to decide if a shove is +ev or not....the blinds structure won't change this....it might affect the very bottom of our range by a hand or so here and there (when blinds are about to change etc.)....but we can't just take -ev shove constantly soley in the name of turbo.....

however i do it all day long in the name of yoda.batman

(<^^>)

betrthanphil

i feel like your range for villian is way to tight. I feel like Ive gone back in time to 2004. Im shoving here and feeling awesome about it.

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betrthanphil;288000 wrotei feel like your range for villian is way to tight. I feel like Ive gone back in time to 2004. Im shoving here and feeling awesome about it.

would it help if i suggest hes shoving the bottom of the range youre thinking of......

betrthanphil

dont you mean top of the range im thinking of? and thats the part I disagree with. I can guarentee you dont have enough history with villian to assume the only hands your beating are ajs and 99 maybe 1010, thats absurd. Also, he is definatly not calling 95% of the time, that number has to be incorrect as well.

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betrthanphil;288037 wrotedont you mean top of the range im thinking of? and thats the part I disagree with.

i think that....99 and stuff is at the bottom...

betrthanphil;288037 wrote I can guarantee you dont have enough history with villian to assume the only hands your beating are ajs and 99 maybe 1010, thats absurd.

I agree full on....aqo is a shove here. I also think that I can fill out an accurate calling and shoving range on my opponent based on his roi...what i mean is...show me a 180 man grinders roi and I will pwn him all day....It won't be accurate for each person......but in general it will be close for most people.

betrthanphil;288037 wrote Also, he is definatly not calling 95% of the time, that number has to be incorrect as well.

I feel like the last bunch of topics (a few posts i remember thinking this) I put up a profile for villain and posters have ignored the profile. I know this guy I have like 2-3k hands with him. I know his peers, I know the info he seeks out, I know what his instructors say, I know the vids he watches.

His not a big winning reg...he is just above 'break even reg'....he makes money but not much...he has a giant issue.....hes too tight....its a leak....

but here as well with 13 bbs....i don't think he has a raise fold range....and i think he never raise calls 99 or kqs etc.....he open shoves them....

And I'm not arguing more about the op.....V already showed I'm not strong enough with the math.....

jdAA88

darbday;288043 wroteHis not a big winning reg...he is just above 'break even reg'....he makes money but not much...he has a giant issue.....hes too tight....its a leak....

but here as well with 13 bbs....i don't think he has a raise fold range....and i think he never raise calls 99 or kqs etc.....he open shoves them....

Yeah, this is pretty significant, cos, I'd say, in the smaller buyin 180s and under, many regs will just 2-2.5x even with 10-15bbs with their premiums to try and induce action cos there's so many bad players who will flat/shove incorrectly and stuff, while they just openjam, like darb said, the rest of their range. And since you do have a pretty damn good read on this villain, if you're sure he is only raise-calling premiums, then this could be a trivial fold imo.

ILike2Play

Seems like all in pre because it's going in either way. If you flat and aren't going to fold do you really think he is ever going to fold. I would just fold that flop after not getting it in preflop.

Richard~

AQo is breakeven vs a 10% opening range. If he opens exactly 10% of hands and calls 100% our AQ shove will net 115 chips which is half of the blinds and antes and about 3% of the total pot, This is assuming no one ever calls behind

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ILike2Play;288049 wroteSeems like all in pre because it's going in either way. If you flat and aren't going to fold do you really think he is ever going to fold. I would just fold that flop after not getting it in preflop.

lol to all you who think you will cbet and call off JJ here ..... other than the top boys....if i catch you cbetting this with less than qq.....you're folding to my shove......its not a question.....the question is will I make more than just shoving pre.....

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Richard~;288050 wroteAQo is breakeven vs a 10% opening range. If he opens exactly 10% of hands and calls 100% our AQ shove will net 115 chips which is half of the blinds and antes and about 2% of the total pot, This is assuming no one ever calls behind

i think this upsets me but im not sure.

Richard~

darbday;288052 wrotei think this upsets me but im not sure.

I'm assuming he calls 100% cause regs generally don't open smaller than 20 BB stacks utg to fold to a reshove cause it's mathematically bad almost always

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Richard~;288053 wroteI'm assuming he calls 100% cause regs generally don't open smaller than 20 BB stacks utg to fold to a reshove cause it's mathematically bad almost always

yes i agree...but what are we doing the math with...stove? we can put it in nash and get a full calculation.....inputing whatever ranges we want for villains...and we can play with over calling ranges behind us....and get a proper calculation.....

now that proper calculation is somewhat the best math model we can come up with but it needs to be adjusted for some things...the adjustment will show that aqo is certainly a jam.....the reasoning is literally because btp says so....

be what upsets (not really) is that we don't all use nash for this....???

Richard~

darbday;288055 wrote

be what upsets (not really) is that we don't all use nash for this....???

not really applicable is villain deviates too much, also, it's certainly not applicable for anything else but unexploitable shoving

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Richard~;288056 wrotenot really applicable is villain deviates too much, also, it's certainly not applicable for anything else but unexploitable shoving

^blatant missunderstanding of what im trying to tell you i think....im not sure....but if it is...im upset... :(

nash is an adjustable calculator like stove...

Richard~

anyway, nash says villain should push 6% and we should call 3%

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Richard~;288058 wroteanyway, nash says villain should push 6-7% and we should call 3%

HoldemResources.net: Beta ICM Nash Calculator

i think nash says villain should push 10.4 and we should call 5.1

but its more about what Jodab. says he is raise calling with.....not nash..:p

here villain has a nutted range and by nash std's we need to fold....but i still think getting it in is correct.....

Richard~

darbday;288060 wroteHoldemResources.net: Beta ICM Nash Calculator

i think nash says villain should push 10.4 and we should call 5.1

but its more about what Jodab. says he is raise calling with.....not nash..:p

here villain has a nutted range and by nash std's we need to fold....but i still think getting it in is correct.....

your link just now said 8%...

nvm, it's utg+1

Richard~

what this tells me is that if AQo is the absolute bottom of our nash calling range and I percieve villains range to be nutted due to my betsizing read I'm not putting this in

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Richard~;288063 wrotewhat this tells me is that if AQo is the absolute bottom of our nash calling range and I percieve villains range to be nutted due to my betsizing read I'm not putting this in

ok but this whole discussion started with this assumption...because we don't need to post the link..i can just tell you....mathematically vs a competent range we get it in...vs this villain its a 'mathematical' fold....

these aren't up for debate they are the premise for the question....assuming 'A' can we do this....

but just as an aside....a mathematical fold...is a shove if the best players say so....meaning most likely....the math is wrong...

Richard~

it's more down to a read than down to math imo

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