I think I have to call here ....

Hobbes

but barf a bit....

Was crushed by a lagtards 67o vs my AK about 10 hands ago. The blinds just went up a few hands ago.

Colovrat is running 13/6 over 50 hands and not really getting out of line.
mantovan is just a lagtard running 54/49.

Full Tilt Poker Game #22200092076: $5 + $0.50 Knockout (171320590), Table 27 - 250/500 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:34:50 ET - 2010/07/09
Seat 1: DaNutz19 (3,555)
Seat 2: Hobbes614 (6,880)
Seat 3: mantovan (9,195)
Seat 4: hardcider (1,055)
Seat 5: brainpan (20,639)
Seat 6: LUCKY_SIG (44,771)
Seat 7: zenik80 (2,723)
Seat 8: BarelyLegal1 (9,500)
Seat 9: Colovrat (3,531)
DaNutz19 antes 50
Hobbes614 antes 50
mantovan antes 50
hardcider antes 50
brainpan antes 50
LUCKY_SIG antes 50
zenik80 antes 50
BarelyLegal1 antes 50
Colovrat antes 50
DaNutz19 posts the small blind of 250
Hobbes614 posts the big blind of 500
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hobbes614 [Qd Jd]
mantovan raises to 1,000
hardcider has 15 seconds left to act
hardcider raises to 1,005, and is all in
brainpan folds
LUCKY_SIG has 15 seconds left to act
LUCKY_SIG folds
zenik80 folds
BarelyLegal1 folds
Colovrat has 15 seconds left to act
Colovrat raises to 3,481, and is all in
DaNutz19 folds
Me ?

DennisG

I fold it..you have position for the next few hands after the sb..so easily dominated in this spot..

[deleted]

nope, if you were playing with lots of room you can try to burn this guy. but here your looking to be first in.....or likely ahead of some range and your no where nearish neither.

Richard~

wow that's close ^^' QJs has good equity against pretty much everything...

it's 6 BB's more out of your 13 BB stack to win like 18 but if you lose you're down to 7 BB's if the initial raiser folds. Then there's the added value of the KO's...

I think I stay out of this one because I still have some reship equity and can stick it in the eye of loose/late position raisers during the next few hands

Edit: I guess the reshove equity diminish in a KO tourney, but I still think that's what I'd do

moose

Colovrat has been playing tight but its mantovan's chips you want. I fail to see how investing 3k chips is worth just the slim possibility of winning a 3.4k side pot.

If the positions were reversed where colovrat had made the UTG 1k raise and then mantovan had shoved, you could 3 bet to isolate and drive colovrat out. But he is the one allin and you are more than likely badly behind his range.

DennisG

Richard~;231810 wrotewow that's close ^^' QJs has good equity against pretty much everything...

i

we have about what? 35% against 3 other players? Hardly worth it I think in this spot...now if we were already in the money and it was top heavy...I might reconsider..

Hobbes

moose;231869 wroteColovrat has been playing tight but its mantovan's chips you want. I fail to see how investing 3k chips is worth just the slim possibility of winning a 3.4k side pot.

If the positions were reversed where colovrat had made the UTG 1k raise and then mantovan had shoved, you could 3 bet to isolate and drive colovrat out. But he is the one allin and you are more than likely badly behind his range.

Ya, really wasn't concerned about mantovan's raise. But Colovrat was my concern. I wasn't sure if he was just taking some advantage of mantovan here or he actually had a decent hand.

Vekked

DennisG;231870 wrotewe have about what? 35% against 3 other players? Hardly worth it I think in this spot...now if we were already in the money and it was top heavy...I might reconsider..

You know how quickly we should call if we actually had 35% equity in a 4-way pot?

Vekked

Hobbes;231896 wroteYa, really wasn't concerned about mantovan's raise. But Colovrat was my concern. I wasn't sure if he was just taking some advantage of mantovan here or he actually had a decent hand.

It's really close, but probably a fold just because mantovan's range is looser so he probably calls with more thands that dominate you than he normally should. If he wasn't in the pot and the action went shove/shove, I'd call. But yea, mantovan's lagginess isn't an asset in this situation.

Hobbes

Vekked;231904 wroteIt's really close, but probably a fold just because mantovan's range is looser so he probably calls with more thands that dominate you than he normally should. If he wasn't in the pot and the action went shove/shove, I'd call. But yea, mantovan's lagginess isn't an asset in this situation.

I am ahead of mantovan's range here that's why I am not concerned too much.

Ran it through PS using the following ranges
mantovan 49%
Colovrat i gave 20% to ship on.

Basically it's a 3-way flip as I am a bit behind Colovrat and ahead of mantovan (if he calls). Heads up I am a 56/44 dog.

moose

Vekked;231903 wroteYou know how quickly we should call if we actually had 35% equity in a 4-way pot?

But it's not 4 way. There are two guys in for $1k and it is another $2.4k to get it in with the TAG whom we are more than likely badly behind with no guarantee the lag will come along for a side pot.

Vekked

Hobbes;231907 wroteI am ahead of mantovan's range here that's why I am not concerned too much.

Ran it through PS using the following ranges
mantovan 49%
Colovrat i gave 20% to ship on.

Basically it's a 3-way flip as I am a bit behind Colovrat and ahead of mantovan (if he calls). Heads up I am a 56/44 dog.

Mantovan might be raising 49% of hands, but I kinda doubt he's calling all of them (maybe I'm wrong). A 13/6 probably isn't getting in 20% of hands, and you still have that micro stack who actually reduces your equity. I'll run some numbers when I get done playing for the day to check the EV, I mean getting it in can't be a huge mistake by any means 10BB deep.

Actually, given that it's a KO and you have 2 guys covered this is a definite shove. Non-KO is close (just seen now it was bounty).

Vekked

moose;231910 wroteBut it's not 4 way. There are two guys in for $1k and it is another $2.4k to get it in with the TAG whom we are more than likely badly behind with no guarantee the lag will come along for a side pot.

My point was that we don't actually have 35% equity in the total pot. It's probably between 20 and 25%. The tag has 7BB, we can't be in that bad of shape with QJs. I'm more afraid of the loose donk calling us with KQ/KJ/pretty much every hand that has us beat which hurts our equity.

moose

I don't see how you put the loose donk on a hand that has us more crushed than the TAG. Your reasoning makes no sense. LAG opened, someone called allin. There is no fold equity for the TAG, therefore he is not pushing blind here into a raiser and a caller. If the LAG has a huge hand he is calling regardless. If he has crap hand, how does Hobbes get the LAGs chips in the pot without being second best?

Hobbes

Vekked;231917 wrote A 13/6 probably isn't getting in 20% of hands

Pretty much gave him Ax, any broadway and 77+ here.
Given his play that does seem reasonable

Vekked

moose;231921 wroteI don't see how you put the loose donk on a hand that has us more crushed than the TAG. Your reasoning makes no sense. LAG opened, someone called allin. There is no fold equity for the TAG, therefore he is not pushing blind here into a raiser and a caller. If the LAG has a huge hand he is calling regardless. If he has crap hand, how does Hobbes get the LAGs chips in the pot without being second best?

I just mean that vs. QJ, the loose player has more KQ/KJ hands in his range that dominate us than the TAG which might fold those hands. But when I pokerstove it, it doesn't make much difference regardless, since he'll have more hands we're flipping with in his range as well.

He doesn't need any fold equity vs. the lag because vs. a 50% opening range QJs is an unexploitable jam...

Vekked

Hobbes;231923 wrotePretty much gave him Ax, any broadway and 77+ here.
Given his play that does seem reasonable

Ax/Broadways/77+ is kind of an absurd range to give him because generally people's shove ranges are relatively balanced across difference types of hands. 77 is wayyy stronger than relative to A2o. So if he's getting in A2o, he's probably getting in 22. If 77 is the bottom of his pair shoving range, the bottom of his non-pair range is probably AJo or KQs, see what I mean? So Ax/77+ is an unrealistic range to assign. It's like saying he'll get in 44 but not AQ or something similar.

What do you think of something like this?

55+,A8s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KQo (12.7%)

If he's playing around 13% of hands overall, I don't really like the idea of putting an extra 7% of hands into his reshoving range here. 13/6 isn't exactly TAG, it's just straight tight/nitty imo.

Hobbes

Vekked;231927 wroteAx/Broadways/77+ is kind of an absurd range to give him

It's a $5 donkament and I do have a hard time removing Ax from his range esp when he can shove from the SB, I have not been too active, the UTG player is way loose and any Ace is overvalued.

Edit: On second thought he prob does not see any of the tightness/looseness.

Vekked

Hobbes;231928 wroteIt's a $5 donkament and I do have a hard time removing Ax from his range esp when he can shove from the SB, I have not been too active, the UTG player is way loose and any Ace is overvalued.

Edit: On second thought he prob does not see any of the tightness/looseness.

I'd personally need a specific read that the person over-valued Ax to put all Ax in his range, just using the info we have in the OP.

Hobbes

Vekked;231929 wroteI'd personally need a specific read that the person over-valued Ax to put all Ax in his range, just using the info we have in the OP.

Good point, but I guess it comes down to this. I'm either flipping or a 60/40 dog at this point.

With my stack I'd be really hurting if I shove/called and lost.

On a side note, what if I had say 12k or so here?