Should I Have Called?

Cerberus

Kristy_Sea;212011 wroteYes, my Mother hasn't stopped crying for weeks.

Hey, she picked me up! That means she calls, not me damnit. I refer you to HM's cougar pic: she's got what she wanted and isn't driving me to wrestling practice. Thus, she calls me :)

T8urmoney

Wetts1012;212014 wroteI think 99 is at the very very bottom of ISO's range here. It just happened to be the hand this time.

I think the original raisers range is decent (55+, AJ+). definately not ATC.

Plug those numbers into stove. Then consider ICM. Then consider you are in good shape.

I ask this. If youre not folding Jacks in this spot. When are you folding JJ pre?

And: If you never fold JJ Pre - you have a leak.

I didn't give ISO's range being that high, hence my thinking....being his super aggro style.....IE. I think we're rarely / never behind him there.....so why not get the chips in? Also, don't care too much about short stacks range, but would agree with you on his.

I have noticed that I don't fold big pairs online preflop too often compared with live....live I feel comfortable at times when I know I'm behind. Online, not so much, hence don't fold as much......ssshhhh.....I can hear the leak.

iNano78

T8urmoney;212022 wroteI didn't give ISO's range being that high, hence my thinking....being his super aggro style.....IE. I think we're rarely / never behind him there.....so why not get the chips in? Also, don't care too much about short stacks range, but would agree with you on his.

Give me a lower bound for big stack's range and I'll give you a probability that we're currently behind, and a probability that we lose to big stack by showdown (the real one, not the "flip over your hole cards" tournament one). I'll make the wild assumption that he's not folding AA, KK, QQ in this spot.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

DennisG

Wetts1012;212014 wroteI think 99 is at the very very bottom of ISO's range here. It just happened to be the hand this time.

I think the original raisers range is decent (55+, AJ+). definately not ATC.

Plug those numbers into stove. Then consider ICM. Then consider you are in good shape.

I agree, not any two cards as well...I figure top 30%? Stove gives us an edge at player one and two with top 30%. ISO has been raising and reraising lots...99 is a pretty tight range for this is it not?

I guess I need to do some more work with the ICM calculator...

I ask this. If youre not folding Jacks in this spot. When are you folding JJ pre?

And: If you never fold JJ Pre - you have a leak.

I will and have folded JJ preflop in other situations. I just want to kick myself in the nuts if I fold here still...

iNano78

DennisG;212026 wroteI agree, not any two cards as well...I figure top 30%? Stove gives us an edge at player one and two with top 30%. ISO has been raising and reraising lots...99 is a pretty tight range for this is it not?

I guess I need to do some more work with the ICM calculator...

I don't interpret "raising and reraising lots" as "pushing behind to isolate lots". Somebody who opens with a raise with more than twice the 2nd-biggest stack, and has a reasonably wide 3-bet range under said circumstances, doesn't mean they're going to buy a shorty insurance on their push lightly. At least, when I'm in the big stack's shoes, I'm not. I agree that 99 would be on the lower end, 'cause I'm not trying to make it easy for a shorty to double-up; with weaker holdings than JJ, I'd much rather call and let others behind me call (and check it down) to optimize the probability of busting shorty from the tourney.

Maybe I'm weird.

Wetts1012

Meh, its close either way.

I do think that an aggro villain who is opening and 3betting alot of pots isnt super light here - he actually has to show down.

DennisG

Wetts1012;212035 wroteMeh, its close either way.

I do think that an aggro villain who is opening and 3betting alot of pots isnt super light here - he actually has to show down.

Fair enough...definitely more to think about in that spot.

In saying all this, I would have ss'd the guy by this point (as he was getting aggressive) and realized he was a reg at 180's...and does well...
Would this change my thoughts in the spot? Maybe...I think I would have had to be there...I think I still call here.

I have a problem when I ss and see the shark logo beside their name..this means A:yes, they are good and they have a hand, it also means B: they don't necessarily have a great hand because they know they don't need one in this spot given the probable range of the other player..

WaterLooser

Paging Dr. Sirwatts, Dr. Sirwatts to the thread please.
Paging AllAces, AllAces, code blue.

Too bad the budget cuts got rid of them .....

[deleted]

Wetts1012;212014 wroteI think 99 is at the very very bottom of ISO's range here. It just happened to be the hand this time.

I think the original raisers range is decent (55+, AJ+). definately not ATC.

Plug those numbers into stove. Then consider ICM. Then consider you are in good shape.

I ask this. If youre not folding Jacks in this spot. When are you folding JJ pre?

And: If you never fold JJ Pre - you have a leak.

great thread, i initial was snap calling, although i am very interested in finding the differences between our games wetts. my trial icm sng wiz expired but can we suggest its likely the big stack would try to trap with qq+

westside8

I think I fold here. Didn't read the rest of the thread, but here are a couple of reasons (off the top of my head) why I would fold.

1. Original raiser has >10bb, which leads to...
2. Big stack isn't calling "because he has to because he had odds" or "i was in the blind",
3. From the previous points, big stack here still has to showdown, hence why his range here is probably not that wide.
4. While you might be ahead of most of his iso range, consider not only your cEV, but your $EV in this case would make it a fold

philliivey

westside8;212721 wroteI think I fold here. Didn't read the rest of the thread, but here are a couple of reasons (off the top of my head) why I would fold.

1. Original raiser has >10bb, which leads to...
2. Big stack isn't calling "because he has to because he had odds" or "i was in the blind",
3. From the previous points, big stack here still has to showdown, hence why his range here is probably not that wide.
4. While you might be ahead of most of his iso range, consider not only your cEV, but your $EV in this case would make it a fold

what the heck does those mean in the bold anyway?

Tilter

This is when I like HUD.

If Rackattack has shown to be able to push/fold then he'll have a wide button shoving range. A button shoving range of top 70% of hands on a 10BB stack will be profitable vs any reasonable calling range.

SB could be iso'ing a reasonable range of 66/77+, A8ss+, ATo+ KJss+ KQo, and sometime SB will flat AA/KK trying to set a trap to get your to come along.

JJ being a top 4 hand, and 180 man being super top heavy payout (54 x buyins to first, while barely doubling buy-in if you mini-cash), I think this would be a great spot to get a huge stack and destroy the final table bubble. Chipping up on the final table bubble is just beautiful when you can contiously raise 2.3x and take blinds after blinds without much resistance.

Tilter

philliivey;212727 wrotewhat the heck does those mean in the bold anyway?

CEV = Chip Expected Value (refers to face value of will you gain chips from this)
$EV = Money Expected Value (refers to ICM Payouts)

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