Should I Have Called?

Cerberus

180 player SNG, 19 left, top 18 get paid. Button is tourney chip leader, has been raising and reraising a lot of hands, I wake up with JJ in the SB and this happens.

PokerStars Game #38111274087: Tournament #231753750, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2010/01/13 15:29:41 ET
Table '231753750 10' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Igor964 (12065 in chips)
Seat 3: rackattack21 (7893 in chips)
Seat 4: Peeeedor (40585 in chips)
Seat 5: McAusland (19347 in chips)
Seat 6: staRfish96 (5059 in chips)
Seat 7: Ziseq (12515 in chips)
Seat 8: hanzig (16715 in chips)
Igor964: posts the ante 50
rackattack21: posts the ante 50
Peeeedor: posts the ante 50
McAusland: posts the ante 50
staRfish96: posts the ante 50
Ziseq: posts the ante 50
hanzig: posts the ante 50
McAusland: posts small blind 300
staRfish96: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to McAusland [Jd Jh]
Ziseq: folds
hanzig: folds
Igor964: folds
rackattack21: raises 7243 to 7843 and is all-in
Peeeedor: raises 32692 to 40535 and is all-in
McAusland: ????

I'm pissed off when he does this. Only guy who can bust me. I tank for a while and folded.
staRfish96: folds
Uncalled bet (32692) returned to Peeeedor
*** FLOP *** [3c Ac 5s]
*** TURN *** [3c Ac 5s] [7d]
*** RIVER *** [3c Ac 5s 7d] [Kd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
rackattack21: shows [7h Th] (a pair of Sevens)
Peeeedor: shows [9d 9h] (a pair of Nines)
Peeeedor collected 16936 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 16936 | Rake 0
Board [3c Ac 5s 7d Kd]
Seat 1: Igor964 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: rackattack21 showed [7h Th] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 4: Peeeedor (button) showed [9d 9h] and won (16936) with a pair of Nines
Seat 5: McAusland (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: staRfish96 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Ziseq folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: hanzig folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Side note: twit couldn't fold AJo as over cards on the turn and I hit my straight to double thru :)

Should I have folded at the bubble there?

[deleted]

gf...

ace staring you in the face, you did well throwing them away.

those other 2 are idiots.

WaterLooser

Regardless of what you SHOULD do here. I think Pee played it correctly for the contents of his hand. Nobody can really "hurt" him. Shoving with a pair here for isolation is a standard move with a pp.

Initial shove's range is huge, Pee's range is probably any 2 big cards+, fold seems reasonable here. Any AKQ on that flop would likely mean you are dead in this spot. I'd prob play it the same way.

DennisG

I NEVER fold there. The bubble isn't that important to me...and regardless..two of you to one to take out the short, so if big stack wins, you still make money. Big stack knows he can bully and has a huge range..Small stack range is also pretty damn wide...good chance their aces are trumping each other.

iNano78

Fold for sure. Definitely don't want to bubble (or finish 18th if both you and rackattack lose the hand) with two all-ins ahead of you, one of which has you covered. If they're both shorties with less than half my stack, then I'd call and pump fist:

You could probably get a quantitative answer for when to call and when to fold (based on stack sizes) in this spot using an ICM calculator.

DennisG

Big stack is only all in to iso....he can have any big cards here..no better spot to double up and take the whole thing down.

PS with player 1 at 30%, player 2 at 25% and you with JJ gives you 58%

edit- player 1 and 2 having ak and aq respectively still gives you an edge.

Wetts1012

I dont like this spot. Fold.

DennisG

Wetts1012;211975 wroteI dont like this spot. Fold.

seriously? It is a 10 dollar 180man. We fold now and work our way into 10th or 12th...or we double up and go for the win...

Maybe this is why my graph spikes...then trickles..then spikes...then trickles...lol..

But here...for 10 bucks..I don't see value in fighting another hour for 5 or 6 or even 10 positions when we have a perfectly good chance here to double (or more) up...

Wetts1012

I dont think the buyin is relevant.

I just have a thing about 99-JJ when theres 2 ships in front. Id rather not have to fade that much at this point.

DennisG

Wetts1012;211983 wroteI dont think the buyin is relevant.

For many it is..I feel ranges are wider in these spots..mine certainly are..lol..A leak? Possibly.

I just have a thing about 99-JJ when theres 2 ships in front. Id rather not have to fade that much at this point.

Now if the button opens and the SB ships and Im in the BB, its a different story.

the opening all in is 10ish bb. Is his range not huge in c/o? Big stack sees any pair or any ace and he is calling....he needs to iso the blinds though..which he effectively does...

My thought process....

I look down and see JJ...immediately my thoughts say one has a pair and one has an ace...3 pairs beat me. If we don't have both beat, we will very likely beat one of them. If they both have aces (very plausible), I am likely golden..Big stack wins, I get 18th...next. small stack wins...we are in good position to regain chips next hand. I win...WEEEE!!! If, on the off chance (in my mind) we lose to both...oh well. Next.

Where am I failing here...???

DataMn

epic_donk;211963 wrotegf...

ace staring you in the face, you did well throwing them away.

those other 2 are idiots.

Epic_Donk,

I realize that you are a soul reader, but if you could read that an ace was coming on the flop before the cards were dealt, then you should be crushing at online poker!!

On a more serious note, as was stated earlier you only need to beat the small stack to make the money. The range of hands where you are crushed is probably pretty small - I would only think that it is limited to QQ, since with KK or AA the large stack might have just called to try and gain another runner. I would call, since winning would put you in a serious position to take down the whole tournament.

TuFull

Wetts1012;211975 wroteI dont like this spot. Fold.

+1

there are a lot of short stacks most likely judging by your chipfort that are going to push soon to put you in the money anyway.

Cerberus

Judging from the discussion, this is a spot where literally either play is good. There's worse spots to get in with, and there's better spots. My biggest line of thinking was the button shoving had been raising in a lot of spots, nearly 2/3 of the hands each lap, but his big shove was out of line with his usual play. Seemed like either bigger pair or smaller pair. Thought for a while and decided to find a better spot against him (which I did, twice :) ) Thanks for all the input!

iNano78

DennisG;211986 wroteFor many it is..I feel ranges are wider in these spots..mine certainly are..lol..A leak? Possibly.

Personally, I don't play worse just 'cause the buy-in is lower. I play to win, regardless.

DennisG;211986 wrote I look down and see JJ...immediately my thoughts say one has a pair and one has an ace...3 pairs beat me. If we don't have both beat, we will very likely beat one of them. If they both have aces (very plausible), I am likely golden..Big stack wins, I get 18th...next. small stack wins...we are in good position to regain chips next hand. I win...WEEEE!!! If, on the off chance (in my mind) we lose to both...oh well. Next.

Where am I failing here...???

If you're up against an A, K, and Q (something like K9 vs. AQ vs. JJ), then you're < 50% to win. If you're up against a higher pair and an A, you're pretty much pooched.

As somebody else said, there are lots of small stacks that are going to be shoving; there are going to be lots of opportunities to more safely take chips off small stacks. No point in risking tournament life at this stage when you have lots of chips.

Imo, you're still in a good spot to take down the entire tournament. You don't need to be in 1st of 18 to do that. (At least, I don't)

DennisG

iNano78;211995 wrotePersonally, I don't play worse just 'cause the buy-in is lower. I play to win, regardless.

I don't call it "worse"...I call it adjusting to the game.

Imo, you're still in a good spot to take down the entire tournament. You don't need to be in 1st of 18 to do that. (At least, I don't)

No, but it sure helps.

T8urmoney

Wetts1012;211975 wroteI dont like this spot. Fold.

phack....no wonder I suck at holdem......I do the snap call against super agro bigstack 10/10 times (while backflipping into the splitz using double fist pump, while listening to 'Run To The Hills'). There's a tiny chance we're behind bigstack, a good chance we have him crushed (small pair or AX), a good chance we're off to the races (QK, AQ, AK). These seems like a great place to take the chip lead and take over the tourney.

Wetts, please inform us why a good player folds here....need to understand your logic here.

DennisG

T8urmoney;211998 wrotephack....no wonder I suck at holdem......I do the snap call against super agro bigstack 10/10 times (while backflipping into the splitz using double fist pump, while listening to 'Run To The Hills'). There's a tiny chance we're behind bigstack, a good chance we have him crushed (small pair or AX), a good chance we're off to the races (QK, AQ, AK). These seems like a great place to take the chip lead and take over the tourney.

I totally missed that part!! yes!

Wetts, please inform us why a good player folds here....need to understand your logic here.

This too...please..

T8urmoney

DennisG;211997 wroteI don't call it "worse"...I call it adjusting to the game.

No, but it sure helps.

Think he was noting, that it sounds in your message like you are playing it this way because of the dollar size of the tourney. Think I know what you are saying, just came out wrong. Dollar amount doesn't matter, quality of opponent does.

Kristy

Cerberus;211960 wroteShould I Have Called?

Yes, my Mother hasn't stopped crying for weeks.

Wetts1012

I think 99 is at the very very bottom of ISO's range here. It just happened to be the hand this time.

I think the original raisers range is decent (55+, AJ+). definately not ATC.

Plug those numbers into stove. Then consider ICM. Then consider you are in good shape.

I ask this. If youre not folding Jacks in this spot. When are you folding JJ pre?

And: If you never fold JJ Pre - you have a leak.