What to do?

13CARDS

deleted

The Prophet 22

Why check the flop and bet the turn? If you are afraid of the ace on the flop then you should be afraid of it on the turn. Either lead out on the flop and find out where you are at or check it down the whole way.

Prophet 22

Kristy

if you're going to bet the turn, (and I think it is fine to do that a decent % of the time) I like choosing a different bigger amount..betting less than you did preflop is just pissing away chips imo.

at this level though, I'm usually just poking at it on the flop...1/2 to 2/3 pot.

betting 3500 on the river is a HUGE mistake. I think I can argue both check/call and check/fold as played...but I can't imagine what a bet is going to accomplish there?

ReefAquarium

13CARDS;169734 wroteMTT on SwankPoker. $400 Guaranteed. Villian has shown down the nuts at least twice after min raising.

Everleaf Gaming Game #62472269
***** Hand history for game #62472269 *****
Blinds 300/600 NL Hold'em - 2008/11/09 - 02:32:14
Table 1
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players: 7
Seat 2: ToBKing ( 9185 )
Seat 3: BadLuckChuck ( 34725 )
Seat 4: PAMI1119 ( 9465 )
Seat 6: SiSlapeeUK ( 13350 )
Seat 7: L0RDJASPER ( 11835 )
Seat 8: 13CARDS ( 16950 )
Seat 10: twinsie ( 23643 )
ToBKing: posts ante [$ 50]
BadLuckChuck: posts ante [$ 50]
PAMI1119: posts ante [$ 50]
SiSlapeeUK: posts ante [$ 50]
L0RDJASPER: posts ante [$ 50]
13CARDS: posts ante [$ 50]
twinsie: posts ante [$ 50]
SiSlapeeUK: posts small blind [$ 300]
L0RDJASPER: posts big blind [$ 600]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to 13CARDS [ Kd, Kh ]
13CARDS raises [$ 1900]
twinsie folds
ToBKing folds
BadLuckChuck calls [$ 1900]
PAMI1119 folds
SiSlapeeUK folds
L0RDJASPER folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, Ad, 9d ]
13CARDS checks
BadLuckChuck checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7h ]
13CARDS: bets [$ 1500]
BadLuckChuck calls [$ 1500]
** Dealing River ** [ 5c ]
13CARDS: bets [$ 3500]
BadLuckChuck raises [$ 7000]
13CARDS ???

Why did you bet the river?
Do you want to play a big pot wrt your stack size with a pair above middle pair?
Why not check the river?

crunkjuice71

i'd cbet here unless this guy has shown an ability to flat call steal (he's got enough chips to call a flop bet and see what you do on the turn). your turn bet screams weakness and if he's a crafty player there's a decent chance you got raised with air on the river. i know i woulda raised with air :)

MarcoGD

I think a cbet to rep the A would have been a better choice, but seeing as you decided to delay it, I'd have definetly made it bigger (2/3 pot or so). After the turn call, my line is check/call or check fold (depending on the bet size)

crunkjuice71

Yeah, I def would prefer betting the flop here. He has to be just as afraid of the A as you are unless he's got it. 2/3 pot as the flop is fairly coordinated. Betting the turn (delayed cbet) is ok as I think his call pre and check behind you on the flop indicate that he has at best small pockets and wants to showdown cheap (he could've checked behind you to get a free card - most people would bet a draw when a preflop aggressor gives up the lead on the flop I think though). The turn bet you made is way too small (needs to be about 2/3 pot), and your river bet, as Kristy said, is basically pissing chips away. Probably would have check folded or check called (if he kept it cheap).

A small problem with a cbet here as I indicated earlier is that your situation is slightly unfavourable because a much larger stack has got position on you. If he calls your flop bet you'll have no idea where you are (even though you could still be crushing him!), and you'll likely give up the lead on the turn at which time he'll basically bet anything.

cadillac

The Prophet 22;169738 wroteWhy check the flop and bet the turn? If you are afraid of the ace on the flop then you should be afraid of it on the turn. Either lead out on the flop and find out where you are at or check it down the whole way.

Prophet 22

Betting the flop has virtually no value. You actually fold out all of the hands that you beat and get calls from only hands that you are behind.

Betting the turn is fine.

Your river bet is a blocker and looks exactly like a blocker but when he min raises you it really looks like a suck-bet and barring any reads to the contrary I think you have to fold. I am more likely to check/call the river. You will pick off enough bluffs with that line to give it value.

Edit: LOL Swank Poker

Kristy

crunkjuice71 wroteIf he calls your flop bet you'll have no idea where you are

The stronger flop c-bet (2/3rds) leaves us with roughly pot back if called...

for this reason I don't think that we have to worry that much about the big stack tagging along on junk or as a move since we do not have an obvious fold available with that much invested.

If the big stack thought we were weak and wanted to make a move- he'd shove the flop..if he just calls we're smoked imo.

Kristy

cadillac;169886 wroteBetting the flop has virtually no value. You actually fold out all of the hands that you beat and get calls from only hands that you are behind.

Betting the turn is fine.

You sneaked in while I was grabbing a coffee...

I agree the betting the turn/getting to showdown cheaply is fine a significant % of the time, but the reason why I think betting the flop is slightly better is because at this level I think it is generally advisable to just be poking at loads of pots..which is irrespective of the strength our hand held pf or may hold now.

Win when you're strong and win when they're weak. The pf call of our opponent and the arrival of the ace turns this hand into virtually any other junk I might play.. and because this is not a 'win when I'm strong' My priority is not looking to extract value anymore, but there is still a decent (imo better) shot at winning when they're weak.

thoughts?

jpajamas

Kristy_Sea;169745 wroteif you're going to bet the turn, (and I think it is fine to do that a decent % of the time) I like choosing a different bigger amount..betting less than you did preflop is just pissing away chips imo.

at this level though, I'm usually just poking at it on the flop...1/2 to 2/3 pot.

betting 3500 on the river is a HUGE mistake. I think I can argue both check/call and check/fold as played...but I can't imagine what a bet is going to accomplish there?

I concur, plus you're out of position, which sucks.

cadillac

Kristy_Sea;169890 wroteYou sneaked in while I was grabbing a coffee...

I agree the betting the turn/getting to showdown cheaply is fine a significant % of the time, but the reason why I think betting the flop is slightly better is because at this level I think it is generally advisable to just be poking at loads of pots..which is irrespective of the strength our hand held pf or may hold now.

Win when you're strong and win when they're weak. The pf call of our opponent and the arrival of the ace turns this hand into virtually any other junk I might play.. and because this is not a 'win when I'm strong' My priority is not looking to extract value anymore, but there is still a decent (imo better) shot at winning when they're weak.

thoughts?

I agree with your overall strategy for a low limit MTT. I just don't think it overrides the situational factors in the hand we are currently involved in.

In a small $$ MTT every donk who flats Ax pre-flop is pretty much betting this flop to see if his kicker is any good. When he checks behind on the flop we can reliably bet the turn for value from the smaller PP that villain may be holding.

JT just got there and any sets or two pairs beat us but we are still ahead of his range so we bet here for two reasons:

1. For value.
2. To protect our vulnerable hand.

crunkjuice71

cadillac;169886 wroteBetting the flop has virtually no value. You actually fold out all of the hands that you beat and get calls from only hands that you are behind.

Betting the turn is fine.

Your river bet is a blocker and looks exactly like a blocker but when he min raises you it really looks like a suck-bet and barring any reads to the contrary I think you have to fold. I am more likely to check/call the river. You will pick off enough bluffs with that line to give it value.

Edit: LOL Swank Poker

I don't know bro. I think there is value in betting the flop. It's true that most hands you're beating will fold, but what's wrong with that? That's a pot that can add significantly to our stack plus I'm OOP and would rather just end the hand early. I don't agree that all hands that call have you beat either (although it really depends on how snugly villain has been playing and his stack size). I don't really like betting the turn after checking the flop. When a preflop raiser checks a coordinated flop with an A on it to me and then bets the turn I'm putting him on a small pair, calling his turn bet, and jamming it up his ass on the river (figuratively of course) :) I do totally agree that a river check call has value.

Kristy

cadillac;169899 wroteJT just got there and any sets or two pairs beat us but we are still ahead of his range so we bet here for two reasons:

1. For value.
2. To protect our vulnerable hand.

Sorry, I wasn't clear...I 100% believe- and suggested earlier that as played you should bet the turn...no question there.

What I'm looking for is discussion of whether one should bet the flop or checks the flop bet the turn as the favoured choice..

crunkjuice71

cadillac;169899 wroteI agree with your overall strategy for a low limit MTT. I just don't think it overrides the situational factors in the hand we are currently involved in.

In a small $$ MTT every donk who flats Ax pre-flop is pretty much betting this flop to see if his kicker is any good. When he checks behind on the flop we can reliably bet the turn for value from the smaller PP that villain may be holding.

JT just got there and any sets or two pairs beat us but we are still ahead of his range so we bet here for two reasons:

1. For value.
2. To protect our vulnerable hand.

You just said that betting the flop has no value because hands we have beat (small pp) will fold out, but then you went on to give extracting value from a small pp as a good reason to bet the turn?

crunkjuice71

Kristy_Sea;169908 wroteSorry, I wasn't clear...I 100% believe- and suggested earlier that as played you should bet the turn...no question there.

What I'm looking for is discussion of whether one should bet the flop or checks the flop bet the turn as the favoured choice..

I'd have to crunch some numbers but my gut feeling is that betting the flop is better. I think a preflop raiser checking a coordinated flop with an A on it, and then betting the turn is weak. I'm calling his turn bet and forcing him to a serious decision on the river (especially if the turn was a scare).

crunkjuice71

Kristy_Sea;169888 wroteThe stronger flop c-bet (2/3rds) leaves us with roughly pot back if called...

for this reason I don't think that we have to worry that much about the big stack tagging along on junk or as a move since we do not have an obvious fold available with that much invested.

If the big stack thought we were weak and wanted to make a move- he'd shove the flop..if he just calls we're smoked imo.

You're right! I'm such a tool. I was only looking at his stack size. I wasn't really paying attention to the pot size relative to our remaining stack. Villain must know that after we bet the flop he has no fold equity. He's def not calling a flop bet to move on the turn. If he calls the flop we're beat (or at the very least uncomfortable)! I feel stupid :)

Mega apologies to Kristy and cadillac. My only defense is that I find it much easier to sit at a table and spot these things.

cadillac

crunkjuice71;169910 wroteYou just said that betting the flop has no value because hands we have beat (small pp) will fold out, but then you went on to give extracting value from a small pp as a good reason to bet the turn?

ahhh yes........

Lets say villain has QQ, JJ, TT, T9, T8, A9, or 66, 55.......

We check the flop and his hand can't stand check-raise so he checks behind. He will also be significantly discounting that we have an Ace in our hand. If we lead out on the turn for half to 3/4's of the pot we will very likely get calls from those hands I listed above because it is a controlled pot and my line looks weak.

cadillac

Kristy_Sea;169908 wroteSorry, I wasn't clear...I 100% believe- and suggested earlier that as played you should bet the turn...no question there.

What I'm looking for is discussion of whether one should bet the flop or checks the flop bet the turn as the favoured choice..

There is no standard play here in my opinion. We should make this decision based on several factors:

1. Board texture.
2. Strength of our holding.
3. Opponents tendencies
4. Position

The significant factor in this hand based on the fact that we have no read on our opponent is that we have the best possible PP that hasn't improved. By checking the flop we give a lot of worse hands a chance to put more money in the pot.

If I held TT on the same board I would likely fire at the flop because my hand is more vulnerable to over cards so I don't want to give a free card and I am happy to rep the A. Since I am the PFR so I should have a fair amount of fold equity.

crunkjuice71

cadillac;169923 wroteahhh yes........

Lets say villain has QQ, JJ, TT, T9, T8, A9, or 66, 55.......

We check the flop and his hand can't stand check-raise so he checks behind. He will also be significantly discounting that we have an Ace in our hand. If we lead out on the turn for half to 3/4's of the pot we will very likely get calls from those hands I listed above because it is a controlled pot and my line looks weak.

I see. Sweet :)