Do you agree with this article?

Wetts1012

adpro;165297 wrote
The hand reference was because I was saying that when there are only two people in the hand, you run less chance that someone else has the flush and beats you. If you have 9 people in the hand, there is a largely increased number of players that could have a flush.

Floor 21, FTW.

JimmyHo

in a cash game, suited connectors are the best way to crucify your opponents. Best in multi way pots.

Vandal

adpro;165297 wrote I just feel like the raw percent increases are better to look at, rather than looking at the amount it increases and representing them as the percent increase.

Here's why that line of thinking is incorrect, and I'll even let you answer it for me:

If I have 9/9, and I'm all in. What pot odds do you need with KQo to call me, and what pot odds with KQs.

Now ask the same questions with 54o and 54s.

See how different it is?

Vandal

Here's the math:

[EDIT] Too lazy...

Kristy

dammit, why didn't I find that picture first?

Adpro, I just wanted to say that I think you're an amazing addition to the forum..a learning player who thinks!

In this specific instance you've missed Vandal's point a little bit...he's not advocating playing suited crap...he's just showing how MUCH better it is than unsuited crap.

Have you read about pot odds yet? If you understand it, try going back and think about the difference between 7/2o and 7/2s...and what situations you'd be correct to play each of them...or better yet NOT correct to play 7/2o

Hope that helps!

Kristy

Vandal;165309 wroteHere's why that line of thinking is incorrect, and I'll even let you answer it for me:

If I have 9/9, and I'm all in. What pot odds do you need with KQo to call me, and what pot odds with KQs.

Now ask the same questions with 54o and 54s.

See how different it is?

double goddammit...while I was un-jacking your account you beat me to the punch!

Wetts1012

Vandal;165308 wrote
If I have 9/9, and I'm all in. What pot odds do you need with KQo to call me, and what pot odds with KQs.

Now ask the same questions with 54o and 54s.

See how different it is?

To summarize in a very simple form:

KQo is a decent hand in this scenario - being suited increases its value marginally

54o is a shitty hand in this scenario - being suited increases its value significantly.

This does not mean 54s > KQs.

adpro

Wetts1012;165313 wroteTo summarize in a very simple form:

KQo is a decent hand in this scenario - being suited increases its value marginally

54o is a shitty hand in this scenario - being suited increases its value significantly.

This does not mean 54s > KQs.

I'm in no way saying that KQs is worse than 54s.

I do understand pot odds post flop for sure, and I use them all the time. Maybe I just need to go over my pre-flop game, which I honestly haven't gone back to re-check in a while, so I guess I should go back for a refresh. Thanks for your post Kristy.

The only thing I have a problem with at all is the fact that the increase in what you are going to call doesn't increase all that much, and when you represent the increase by percent the percent it increases compared to its non-suited counterpart makes it seem like a way larger increase. I fully understand that it is a large increase.

I understand that if it's 1% chance of winning unsuited and 2% suited, you are gonig to be able to call twice as much, based on pot odds. I just don't like the idea of saying it's an increase of 100%, because some people might take that the wrong way, especially pre-flop when it's not as easy to figure out your odds of winning a hand without some software telling you.

Either way, I do understand and I guess this is just a bit of a personal preference or issue, or whatever. No offence was meant by it at all.

herschelw

The article is mostly geared to beginners so the advice is pretty basic in trying help beginners correct thier starting hand values to some degree.

Let's talk about this quote:
"Overall, players love to play suited cards. Picture this scenario: You are sitting in the big blind. As each player folds his or her hand, a player in late position raises four times your big blind bet. After everyone else folds, you look down to see Qh-9h. Wow, suited cards!
What do you do? Let's assume that you decide to call.
Your world just got a lot more complicated after the flop brings Ac-10h-3h -- a flush draw! Now what do you do? You have about a 1 in 3 chance of hitting the flush. Consequently, you end up calling bet after bet, down to the river. If you don't catch the flush, you have to fold, losing valuable tournament chips. Or even worse, you do catch the flush and your opponent has a higher flush. All the while you keep saying to yourself, "But they were suited!"

Calling out of position with anything less than a very strong hand is a big mistake imo unless stacks are very deep. If you did flop a flush draw in this spot you should almost certainly be check raising because playing your draws weakly both gives away the value of your hand to some degree and allows your opponent to control the pace of the hand. So his scenario should read more like.....

What do you do? Let's assume that you decide to call.
Your world just got a lot more complicated after the flop brings Ac-10h-3h -- a flush draw! Now what do you do? You have about a 1 in 3 chance of hitting the flush. Consequently, you realize that calling on every street has major drawbacks so you decide to turn your hand into a semi-bluff and disguise your hand giving you multiple ways to win the pot and increasing the value of your hand tremendously. If you check raise wrks you pick up a decent number of chips and if it doesnt then you have the option to fire again on the turn or check and fold if you opponent makes a large bet.

As far as the value of cards being suited I think in a multiway pot with position a hand that would be bordline for you to play becomes much more valuable(89s or 67s for example). However trash hands are still trash hands. 92o and 92s are both still 92.

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