flop 2 pair what to do

AcidJoe

This was saturday playing 1/2 NL at my place. Table is a mix of loose fish and loose aggressive players, with one full time poker pro from Rama playing. Everyone liked to limp into a lot of pots.

I'm on the button with J9 hearts and limp in and we see a flop 8 handed.

Flop comes J 9 diamonds and 7 spades. 2 checks then a $7 bet, which got raised to $25. Both these players are loose aggressive players.

Stack sizes are as follows Original better just over $250, raiser just over $200 and me with about $375

What's your move?

ReefAquarium

AcidJoe;163771 wroteThis was saturday playing 1/2 NL at my place. Table is a mix of loose fish and loose aggressive players, with one full time poker pro from Rama playing. Everyone liked to limp into a lot of pots.

I'm on the button with J9 hearts and limp in and we see a flop 8 handed.

$16 in the pot

Flop comes J 9 diamonds and 7 spades. 2 checks then a $7 bet, which got raised to $25. Both these players are loose aggressive players.

Stack sizes are as follows Original better just over $250, raiser just over $200 and me with about $375

What's your move?

$47 in the pot..

Stack to pot ratio is 5 ( 1/2 pot bettor) or 4 (pot sized raiser) plus 2 checkers after you ...

How deep are the 2 guys who checked?

I'm not putting the later position people at high pairs or AK since they are aggressive and didn't raise preflop. Mid to low pairs, High card hands like Q8, QT, AJ, KJ, A9 are possible. I don't think they are pure bluffing since the pot is so multiway. Semi bluffs are a distinct possiblilty on such a draw heavy board.

With top two and LAGS in mid late position and an SPR of 5, I'm fine with comitting to this pot ... I don't know about how deep the EP checkers are but I'm guessing they aren't significant???

2 lines seem likely. Small ball and longball. Do you play better postflop then these guys? If you do then play smallball.

Smallball. Flat call to make use of your great position here. This is dangerous since this is a draw heavy board. If a dangerous card comes on the turn (say 10d) then you get to see what they do.

This line offers the first limper about 3 to 1 to fill his flush/straight draw. It has the disadvantage of not getting more info from the raiser/better.

If the checkers fold and the bettor flat calls then you are raising for value if it's checked around to you on a safe turn.

Longball. If you think they will go broke with top pair, Raise about 75 more. If re-raised call the LAGs. If called push most turns.

STR82ACE

Pump it UP to $75. Should drive out the draws. I'm good with pushing here too if I"m re re reaised. I'm not seeing any pocket pairs here, and AK AQ are not likely considering preflop play to this point. Thinking one has AJ or KJ, the original better mostly a draw though.

AcidJoe

One of the checkers has about $50 in front of him the other had about $175. The players after where mid $150's -$200's.

JimmyHo

I like the pot size bet as suggested. If you get re-raised again, you have a tough decision. I like big bets w two pair on the flop. Even if you are facing 810 already, still have a good chance to win the hand by the river.

pkrfce9

pokerJAH;163783 wroteEven if you are facing 810 already, still have a good chance to win the hand by the river.

i must have slept through that math class. help me to run those numbers.

8-way limped pot? you can't be too in love with your hand. what would doyle say here? well, at least you have position.

AcidJoe

I wasn't in love with my hand. I was going to pop the original bettor to 25. The re raise through a horseshoe into the machine. It probably took me about 5 minutes to work through what I thought I should do. I'll post tomorrow what I actually did.

JimmyHo

pkrfce9;163786 wrotei must have slept through that math class. help me to run those numbers.

ok, so only 18% chance to win the hand. For some reason I was thinking trips vs straight. Need to get those reading glasses.

Pantsonfire

pkrfce9;163786 wrote... what would doyle say here? well, at least you have position.

No, I believe Doyle would say never go broke in an unraised pot. And this is a pot where there is a real good chance of doing that.

That's why I would advocate a raise right now. $75 seems like a standard amount but I'm thinking even $60 will give you the info you need to know. Your decision after this raise will depend on the responses.

The reason I don't like flat-calling is that it is usually a move "to see what happens" or slowplaying a monster or floating. So this is obviously a see what happens situation and frankly too many different things could happen and make you next decision even more difficult whether it's another re-raise on the flop or a shitty turn card and more action.

Edit: New Concept - We have all heard the method for raising to protect your hand. How about raising to protect your stack? If you don't want to go broke in an unraised pot, a raise on the flop here may get you enough information to get away from this hand thus saving the rest of your stack. Thoughts?

herschelw

Normally I am raising there to $80ish and considering effective stacks are only 50BB's at most you normally are going broke here. Flatting is not terrible but this is about as draw heavy as a board gets so if a rough turn card peels off and there's action in front of you on the turn you have to consider going away. As far as the discussion on betting to drive out draws.....We shouldnt be betting to drive out draws!!!! It's clearly -EV to force out the worst hand(which a draw is). We should be betting an amount that gives our opponent a bad price that they will be willing to pay with thier draw(if they arent willing to pay a bad price then you have to bet an amount that they will fold to or check if you think they will bluff the turn a high % of the time).

STR82ACE

herschelw;163820 wrote.....We shouldnt be betting to drive out draws!!!! It's clearly -EV to force out the worst hand(which a draw is). We should be betting an amount that gives our opponent a bad price that they will be willing to pay with thier draw(if they arent willing to pay a bad price then you have to bet an amount that they will fold to or check if you think they will bluff the turn a high % of the time).

Agree...but I would be just as happy taking this down on the flop without having an opponent get just a bit lucky on this board. VERY draw heavy, I don't want to be behind a bad turn card here and forced to make a decision on 4th street.

Danger cards...any diamond...8, 10, and Q to A to make better 2pr. Thats alot of cards for opponent to hit with.

AcidJoe

My decision here was to raise or fold. Flat calling never entered my mind since I wouldn't know where I was. I popped it to $75 and everyone folded but the re raiser who called the $50 more. Turn card was another 7 (hearts I think definately not the diamond). He bets $50 to me, now what's your move? I really didn't like the board pairing here.

pkrfce9

AcidJoe;163831 wroteI really didn't like the board pairing here.

you would have if it was the 9 or J that paired...

i'm curious as to the timing of the others leaving the pot. that raise to 25 on the flop with 7 people left to act sounds like a pretty big hand, doesn't it? then smooth calling your raise OOP is strange. i don't think T8 smooth calls here. maybe a nut flush draw or a set? or a flush draw with a gutshot? after all, K8 MAKE MONEY!

i would likely fold unless i think the guy is a tool and then i prob pay him off. what hand calls you on the flop that you are ahead of now?

that 50 into ~200 bet is pretty weak, though. is he possibly throwing up a blocker bet here with a good draw? if i think that is what he is doing i prob push on him. he is likely to call anyway with a ~25% chance to river you. sounds like it would only be 100 more for him to call so he is getting good odds.

or is it T8 suddenly afraid of a boat and testing the waters? i just can't see him smooth calling the flop with T8. maybe he sees you as an uber lag? no, that can't be it!

AcidJoe

me an uber lag? You've seen me fold KK before. But yes I think he's a tool.

pkrfce9

AcidJoe;163866 wrote But yes I think he's a tool.

so the 50 is just a 'let me draw cheaply' bet?

i guess i shove then but even if you are behind only trip 7s, i doubt you have any fold equity.

ReefAquarium

AcidJoe;163831 wroteMy decision here was to raise or fold. Flat calling never entered my mind since I wouldn't know where I was. I popped it to $75 and everyone folded but the re raiser who called the $50 more. Turn card was another 7 (hearts I think definately not the diamond). He bets $50 to me, now what's your move? I really didn't like the board pairing here.

The pot is now $247 and the villain has $100 back? It's 50 you.

The villain makes a tiny bet donk bet on a very draw heavy board to a guy who 3 bet the flop?

This guy could care less about offering 5 to 1 to a flush/straight draw.

Stack to pot ratio is .4 here.. pretty obvious that the math says that this is a commitment type situation.

The question is it a suck bet or a blocking bet? Do you want to let him bluff his final $100? or.. Do you want to try make him pay to draw his final card if he's on the flush/straight draw?

Is he on a draw? Your $75 into the pot gave him bad odds to draw to a 8 out or 9 out flush/straight. A monster draw would have outs to make a play, although he should a shoved on the flop if he had a monster draw. (is this villain the Rama pro that you mentioned?)

If he's a good player he wouldn't be in a situation where he calls a draw on the flop with neither pot odds or implied odds to call unless he's bluffing. But the flop bet is too small to be anything but a post oak bluff.

Conclusion , He ain't on a draw if he's a good player.

pkrfce9

counterpoint:

AcidJoe;163866 wroteI think he's a tool.

AcidJoe

Conclusion , He ain't on a draw if he's a good player.

That is true, and he isn't the Rama pro. As Greg alluded too I think the guy is a tool. I flat called his $50 just to see what hit on the river. He looked very confused that I called rather than pushed because that's what he expected me to do. River Card: Jack of clubs. Mr. Tool bets $50 into me again.

GTA Poker

I love 1 2 pros

pkrfce9

AcidJoe;163960 wroteRiver Card: Jack of clubs.

nice catch, fish. or does he have quadz?