Poker Question

tonypapa1

Hi all,

I have a poker question that another player and I were disagreeing upon. Here is the situation;

This is a pre-flop call situation in limit poker. I have 8-6 suited, on the button, I'm in for 2 bets preflop and then it gets capped (4 bets) coming back to me with 6 players already in and 2 players folding for 2 bets. This leaves me with 12-1 on my money if I call. What is the correct play, fold or call?

Thanks for any feedback

Wetts1012

Havent had time to verify your math, but if its right I call with a 2 and the cut card here.

MickeyHoldem

Wetts1012;161824 wroteHavent had time to verify your math, but if its right I call with a 2 and the cut card here.

This!!

The_Awesome

Easy call.

Hobbes

Call and suckout.

MCflip73

fold and try not swear at the dealer when you hit your straight flush!

JohnnieH

If you're going to call with 86, you might as well 3 bet it.

Pantsonfire

tonypapa1;161823 wroteHi all,

I have a poker question that another player and I were disagreeing upon. Here is the situation;

This is a pre-flop call situation in limit poker. I have 8-6 suited, on the button, I'm in for 2 bets preflop and then it gets capped (4 bets) coming back to me with 6 players already in and 2 players folding for 2 bets. This leaves me with 12-1 on my money if I call. What is the correct play, fold or call?

Thanks for any feedback

It's pretty certain to be a correct call here but I have to wonder how you ended up with 2 bets in the pot in the first place. That may have been the real problem/leak.

There are many examples in poker, especially NL where your previous betting (or even worse calling) could put you into a position where you have to call another bet based on the pot odds, even when you know you should not be there in the first place. This is commonly referred to as "committing yourself to the pot".

It doesn't happen as frequently in Limit but my guess is that this is the case in your hand here.

zunni74

Pantsonfire;161890 wroteIt's pretty certain to be a correct call here but I have to wonder how you ended up with 2 bets in the pot in the first place. That may have been the real problem/leak.

There are many examples in poker, especially NL where your previous betting (or even worse calling) could put you into a position where you have to call another bet based on the pot odds, even when you know you should not be there in the first place. This is commonly referred to as "committing yourself to the pot".

It doesn't happen as frequently in Limit but my guess is that this is the case in your hand here.

This....

At the end of the day having good pot odds doesn't overcome crappy cards. 6-8 suited isn't 'bad' in terms of holding but certainly puts you at a disadvantage.

In limit where I've had a marginal holding pre-flop and I call 2 bets when I shouldn't, and it's capped ahead. I can't justify calling 2 more bets and throw good money after bad.

zunni74

Wetts1012;161824 wroteHavent had time to verify your math, but if its right I call with a 2 and the cut card here.

Don't get this mentality at all. In limit you get proper odds to call a lot of things a lot of the time. At some point you need to have a holding that has a reasonable shot of winning.

Against 6 players 6-8 suited is almost certain to have at least 1 native out shared with another player (A-6, Q-8?). Even flush draws on the flop aren't automatically clean and can cost you a few BB. Your only real hope with that many players in is the straight but even then you could idiot-end it for the loser which again costs you a BB or 2.

Flop comes 843 rainbow, where are you in the hand? You have top pair crappy kicker and against 6 players can be easily up against much better hands.

I'll review my copy of Small Stakes Hold'em where they discuss this a bit and post what they say.

I had to come back and edit this to go into more detail.

First:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 15.569% 14.44% 01.12% 113696 8853.02 { 8d6d }
Hand 1: 14.042% 12.91% 01.13% 101643 8882.27 { random }
Hand 2: 14.149% 13.02% 01.13% 102484 8883.27 { random }
Hand 3: 14.041% 12.91% 01.13% 101594 8923.61 { random }
Hand 4: 14.105% 12.98% 01.12% 102183 8840.19 { random }
Hand 5: 14.108% 12.98% 01.13% 102180 8871.02 { random }
Hand 6: 13.987% 12.88% 01.11% 101349 8742.61 { random }

Your equity in this hand is poor (though barely ahead) against that many players with those cards.

Secondly, the betting has been capped, it's likely someone has SOMETHING. A pocket pair higher than 7's and your equity edge is completely gone. Best case scenerio would be if all the other players have each others outs something like this:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.827% 47.75% 00.08% 902677 1524.71 { 8d6d }
Hand 1: 23.989% 22.87% 01.12% 432422 21102.05 { AKo }
Hand 2: 08.622% 07.51% 01.11% 141934 21064.05 { AQo }
Hand 3: 08.442% 07.33% 01.11% 138573 21032.38 { AJo }
Hand 4: 02.656% 02.45% 00.21% 46262 3953.71 { KJo }
Hand 5: 05.673% 05.47% 00.21% 103340 3915.71 { QJo }
Hand 6: 02.791% 02.58% 00.21% 48784 3985.38 { KQo }

Where all the other players in the hand are drawing to a single out, however I suspect this is unlikely.

And finally as an example of how pot odds can really be juiced up in Limit (good opportunity to see if I'm doing this right) (assuming 2/5 limit)

You are on the button, you've called 2 bets and the BB raises as does the original raiser.
So now you are facing 2 more bets on the button with only the BB to complete for the last 2 if he wants to stay in.

For your first 2 bet call, you are getting 6.5 to 1 (26 in the pot, and 4 for you to call) , and after the UTG player caps the betting you are getting better than 14 to 1 for your 4 more call. (58 in the pot and 4 for you to call)

On the flop you are getting 32:1 to call a single bet (64 in the pot and 2 to you) before any other callers.

Assuming you see the turn where things get expensive, you are still getting a minimum of 13:1 (assuming you and 1 other player paid $2 on the flop) (68 in the pot and 5 to you). That's enough to draw for almost any hand.

And the river assuming a bet and call on the turn is 15:1 (78 in the pot and 5 to you)

So, as you can see (and I still am going to look up the info in SSHE) pot odds can be artificially inflated to allow you to call with any prayer of a draw all the way through a limit hand.

**NOTE: I'm not a machine, I make mistakes. If you see any, please point it out. I use this forum to learn too.

MickeyHoldem

zunni74;161911 wroteDon't get this mentality at all. In limit you get proper odds to call a lot of things a lot of the time. At some point you need to have a holding that has a reasonable shot of winning.

Against 6 players 6-8 suited is almost certain to have at least 1 native out shared with another player (A-6, Q-8?). Even flush draws on the flop aren't automatically clean and can cost you a few BB. Your only real hope with that many players in is the straight but even then you could idiot-end it for the loser which again costs you a BB or 2.

Flop comes 843 rainbow, where are you in the hand? You have top pair crappy kicker and against 6 players can be easily up against much better hands.

I'll review my copy of Small Stakes Hold'em where they discuss this a bit and post what they say.

This reply is from a mobile devise so I can't run things through poker stove or cut and paste from 2 dimes but 68s vs AA, QQ, 44, KJs, T9s, and 87s is...

roughly .068 when somebody has a higher flush draw, and
roughly .102 when they don't

Since you need about .077 equity, this should be clear call mathematically.

2dimes couldn't handle duece-cut card but 72o is running about 25 to 1 against!

The_Awesome

"I can't justify calling 2 more bets and throw good money after bad."

It could also be argued that one should not let a poor decision of the past influence the proper decision at the moment. You are where you are at the moment and there is no changing that. Decide based on the finite moment.

zunni74

The_Awesome;161932 wrote"I can't justify calling 2 more bets and throw good money after bad."

It could also be argued that one should not let a poor decision of the past influence the proper decision at the moment. You are where you are at the moment and there is no changing that. Decide based on the finite moment.

I won't argue against this. See my edited response as to how very quickly pot odds can come together at a loose fishy table to justify any/all calls. I think we can all agree that sometimes the best choice is to lay down garbage regardless of the odds being offered.

The_Awesome

Indeed.

zunni74

MickeyHoldem;161928 wroteThis reply is from a mobile devise so I can't run things through poker stove or cut and paste from 2 dimes but 68s vs AA, QQ, 44, KJs, T9s, and 87s is...

roughly .068 when somebody has a higher flush draw, and
roughly .102 when they don't

Since you need about .077 equity, this should be clear call mathematically.

2dimes couldn't handle duece-cut card but 72o is running about 25 to 1 against!

Look at my edited reply, by the time we reach the turn we have good enough odds to chase down any hand. Calling the extra 2 bets pre-flop may be 'mathematically' the right play, but at the end of it all, you are still holding 8 high against 7 oppt's.. Do you like that spot enough to throw in another 2 bets?

And as I mentioned in my previous reply, flop kinda hits you, with 1 or 2 overs, someone bets into you. Can you call 1-2 bets with bottom pair and 7 oppt's? In this case it's not about the fact you may have the best hand, it's that because of the pre-flop action you will have no idea where you stand.

herschelw

getting 12 to 1 preflop without a doubt you have to call with 86s. In these really spewy limit games where you get a capped pot with 6 callers 86s is the typed hand that gets paid off amazing well when you hit it. Limit holdem is all about playing the correct odds. It's much more a science where NL is an art.

adpro

I don't play limit, but lets say you hit nothing on the flop. Or, lets say the flop is something like A J 8 rainbow.

Now, you have 6 outs, right? To make two pairs or trips?

Well, chances are someone else has an A, so they are ahead of you. Those 4 pair outs should probably be fully discounted. You also have to factor in the fact that someone else likely has a pair at the moment, and may be beating you with two pairs or a set. I wouldn't be surprised to see a JJ or AA hand here. I feel like the 2 trip outs should be cut in half for proper odds, cause you might already be beat to a set, and I feel it's also possible that two other people hit a pair.

So, I would say you have 1 out if that flop came up, not 6. Most of those outs will just cause you to lose too much money too many times.

So, odds are stacked against you here, if you aren't on a straight or flush draw. The other players are way ahead of you.

In this circumstance, it makes sense to call in your situation, cause if you do hit, you are going to rake in a lot of money. I probably would have been in the same situation as you. If you don't hit, like above, fold right away. I personally like (x)-(x+2) suited cards and like to limp in with them when in good position. When you hit your straight, people can't seem to put you on it and you end up raking in a lot of money from it. You just have to be prepared to fold it fast!

It seems that not only do you need to play limit by the odds, but you have to calculate your odds correctly. Don't just calculate odds of hitting a hand. Calculate odds hitting a winning hand. With an ugly flop to you and these hole cards, you would likely fold almost every time you don't come close to hitting your flush or straight.

Thoughts?

tonypapa1

Well now that I got somewhat of an answer, here is the way the hand went down.

There were originally 8 callers preflop.
Big blind raised to 2 bets.

I was in the small blind position; person to my right was on the button.
When the bet came around to him at 2 bets, he was reluctant to calling but begrudgingly threw the extra bet in. I picked up on this and since the limit is low, I three bet it to be a dick.

The big blind obviously 4 bet it and got 2 other people to fold plus the guy to my right sitting in the big blind. Who was mad at me at this point.....mainly because I was snickering.

The flop came:

6h Kd 8c

Turn was a 9s and river was 2h

Winning hand: Kc5c, (Original raiser had JJ, I think I was holding T4o, lol)

To which this point, the person sitting in the big blind told me that he would have won the pot with 8d6d. So I told him he should have called since he was getting 13-1 on his money. This is how this arguement began.

Pantsonfire

tonypapa1;162026 wroteWell now that I got somewhat of an answer, here is the way the hand went down.

There were originally 8 callers preflop.
Big blind raised to 2 bets.

I was in the small blind position; person to my right was on the button.
When the bet came around to him at 2 bets, he was reluctant to calling but begrudgingly threw the extra bet in. I picked up on this and since the limit is low, I three bet it to be a dick.

The big blind obviously 4 bet it and got 2 other people to fold plus the guy to my right sitting in the big blind. Who was mad at me at this point.....mainly because I was snickering.

The flop came:

6h Kd 8c

Turn was a 9s and river was 2h

Winning hand: Kc5c, (Original raiser had JJ, I think I was holding T4o, lol)

To which this point, the person sitting in the big blind told me that he would have won the pot with 8d6d. So I told him he should have called since he was getting 13-1 on his money. This is how this arguement began.

This is a little confusing but I think you are saying the guy on the button had 86. He limped in after several other limpers (okay so far) and then called a raise for one bet after several other callers (still okay so far). So now SB 3 bets and BB 4 bets and it gets back to him with 86s and betting capped and getting 13 to 1 on 2 more bets. These odds would indicate 24 bets in the pot now. Yeah so call with those odds. Folding was a mistake at that point.

The real LOL in all this is players who get pissed off with the betting of their opponents. How could you raise with XX? Wouldn't it be great if we could tell our opponents when to bet, raise or fold!

zunni74

adpro;162012 wrote
It seems that not only do you need to play limit by the odds, but you have to calculate your odds correctly. Don't just calculate odds of hitting a hand. Calculate odds hitting a winning hand. With an ugly flop to you and these hole cards, you would likely fold almost every time you don't come close to hitting your flush or straight.

Thoughts?

Frankly, the only board that can make your hand is 2 pair or up. And with that many players there is usually a chance that someone has made a better 2 pair (I see 2 pair over 2 pair all the time at the casino), a set, or a straight (689 on the board and 7T or 57 kills you (for an example)), larger flushes etc.

I just don't see how you get paid enough of the time to justify the 2 bet call. It just seems like a bad proposition and not +ev enough to take a chance on it.