st0neC0ldNutz
Hey guys,
Have not posted in a while but have been stewing this around in my brain for a few weeks now...
My background: In 2007 so far I have played 400 SNG's and my ROI is 18% at the $5 buy-in level. I am not a high roller yet :-)
Basically, 350 of those SNG's have been played one game at a time, or at most two at a time.
New strategy: At the start of October I set my self a goal of focusing ONLY on $5, 9-man, Non-turbo SNG's (using only FullTilt and Stars equally) - whereas some of my past SNG's were a mix of 6 man, 18 man, HU and sometimes turbos...
With my new strategy I can only four table - so I open 2 FT and 2 Starts games and start them within minutes of each other...
So far, and yes its a small sample size - I have played 55 games and the results have been through the roof. I have an ROI of 63.6%. My goal was to play 100 games using this method and see how well I could do.
My Question: If I can get to 100 games, and still show an ROI above say 40%, is it more generally accepted that you should continue to increase the number of games you play and stay at the same limit - or is it better to double my limit (from $5 to $10 games) and still stay with 4 tables?
Yes, 8 tabling in an of itself would bring my ROI down due to lack of decision making time, but does it bring it down MORE than the amount of ROI you are most likely to lose when you start playing against more skilled players (i.e moving up a limit) ? Just deliberating as to whether I should move from 4 to 5 to 6 etc...to 8 games at the $5 level OR play 4 tables @ the $10 level - either way I am paying $44 per session to play.
Just wondering if people have a general rule of thumb for this, or, what you all have experienced in the past.
Sorry, this was kind of a brain dump...
Cheers.
STR82ACE
8 tableing? Jeez, most I've ever done was three, and I paid the price for it then BIG time.
Personally, my ROI takes a huge hit if I do more than 2 tables. I find I just can't concentrate enough to have more than that going on at any one time, and my play suffers for it.
Be interesting to see how your analysis ferrets out Nutz after awhile. To answer your question, should you open MORE tables or move up, from my limited experience multi tabling, it would be a coin flip on the impact on your ROI. Would like to know how you do after awhile.
BTW, welcome back...hope to hear from you more often.
st0neC0ldNutz
Coin flip huh? Ha ha ha
I have found 4 tabling interesting but I can manage it - it gets particularly rough when I am 4 handed or less at all four tables...also, HU at two or more tables at once gives me an ulcer...so Im not sure how 8 tables would make me feel.
I will try to remember to post my stats once I get to 100 games. Also, I will update on if I am going to try adding one game at a time, or just move up a limit and track it...or both(?) too many god damn choices!
moose
I would move up. I think on a personaly improvement basis you want to play the highest limit you can beat. It only leads to bigger games and higher profits. There is a limit to the number of games you can multitable (unless you are Havad Khan) so moving up is the only practical way to keep increasing your profits.
If you are killing the $5, you won't find $10 much harder.
Also I would stagger the start times. Every time the blinds go up, start a new sng. Otherwise you may find yourself hu on 4 tables simultaneously, which is a bit hectic.
margaud
To be honest, 700 sng's isn't even much of a sample set to judge anything. So don't even begin to think about anything with 100 games multitabling.
moose makes a good point about staggering the start times.
I think more important is your bank roll. It's not about having $44 in play at any time session. It's whether you can weather a bad streak where you don't cash in 20 sng's in a row.
You are really asking two questions.
1. Move up or not.
2. Increase # of tables or not
1. depends on your bankroll
2. you need to experiment adding/removing tables and keep detailed records to figure out your $$/hr. I don't think ROI % is as important here. For multi tablers, how much you make per hour is the biggest factor.
st0neC0ldNutz
moose;128781 wroteI would move up. I think on a personaly improvement basis you want to play the highest limit you can beat. It only leads to bigger games and higher profits. There is a limit to the number of games you can multitable (unless you are Havad Khan) so moving up is the only practical way to keep increasing your profits.
If you are killing the $5, you won't find $10 much harder.
Also I would stagger the start times. Every time the blinds go up, start a new sng. Otherwise you may find yourself hu on 4 tables simultaneously, which is a bit hectic.
Yes, good point about start staggering...have to start doing that.
Also, very true about there being an upper max on how many tables you can actually play at once vs the option of just moving up the limits. I was just trying to see if there was someone out there that finds greater success multi tabling a lower limit than playing less games at a higher limit in terms of $/hr (I guess that is a better gauge if you are just trying to increase your BR)
st0neC0ldNutz
margaud;128786 wroteTo be honest, 700 sng's isn't even much of a sample set to judge anything. So don't even begin to think about anything with 100 games multitabling.
moose makes a good point about staggering the start times.
I think more important is your bank roll. It's not about having $44 in play at any time session. It's whether you can weather a bad streak where you don't cash in 20 sng's in a row.
You are really asking two questions.
1. Move up or not.
2. Increase # of tables or not
1. depends on your bankroll
2. you need to experiment adding/removing tables and keep detailed records to figure out your $$/hr. I don't think ROI % is as important here. For multi tablers, how much you make per hour is the biggest factor.
So what is considered a good # of games to have played before you can, with more certainty, say that you are ready to move up in limits? 1000?
Also, I feel like if you ever do not cash for 20 SNG's as you say, then something is wrong with the level you are playing at <you are playing up too high> (at least at the low limits I play) - I do suppose, that if I were playing $1000 sng's that I could have a 2% ROI and still be happy with the money I would be able to pull in per month (or $/hr to be more accurate)
moose
Obviously the best way to accumulate $$ is to win tournaments, not get a lot of 2nds and 3rds. As long as you feel feel that you aren't outmatched a lot of times when you get hu then move up.
There may be a bit of an adjustment period as you move to a new level but really you see much of a difference between $5 and $10.
If you are that worried, play 2 $5 and 2 $10. That will smooth out a bit of your variance should you experience a drop at the $10 level.
cadillac
st0neC0ldNutz;128769 wrote
Just wondering if people have a general rule of thumb for this, or, what you all have experienced in the past.
Solid question. Three points I would like to touch on:
1. Levels - With the $5.50's vs $11's the difference in competition will be so small that Your profit should really double without changing anything. I would move up immediately as long as you are rolled for it.
2. Sets vs Continual - Totally a matter of preference but I almost always played in sets because it maximizes your per hour return. You can fire up 4 SNG's you can play them all in an hour. If you stagger them by 15 min you will double your time logged on in order to play the same # of games.
I also like playing in sets because M's and stack size decisions are made easier when the levels in all of your tournies remain consistent.
It is difficult when you get 4 tables Heads-Up but just remember not to rush and use your time bank to make good decisions. The added value here is when you take your time to make HU decisions you will often tilt your opponent at these stakes.
3. Don't be afraid to play turbo's (stars levels are playable...some other sites are not). You often see worse players in the turbo's and if you are solid at pushbotting you can easily overcome the shorter levels.
Good Luck at the tables.
Marty Smith
A lot of your decision to move up (or other) should be based on your bankroll size and growth. If you are at a comfortable spot in your bankroll genesis then you should be looking closely at your hourly rate then. Although that is a small sample size, its not bad either and has probably had an even better effect on your hourly rate.
When I multi-table I its usually no more than 2. At 3 tables it usually means I am ending one and beginning another and just overlapping. With 4 or more I would specifically reccomend that you have software that can track VPIP, PFR, WSD%, and WSDW%. Tournament Indicator has an MZone calculation too and is great for sit and go tournaments.
Bottom line is if your bankroll is moving up, AND your hourly rate is good, stick with your level until you get as comfortable as you can with multi-tabling and have a system in place. Then experiment with higher levels while keeping a VERY close watch on your hourly rate. Poker charts can help you with that too.
Good luck and great playing so far!
moose
Marty Smith;128824 wrote WSDW%.
= W$SD% ?
not sure
schabs
What site do you check your single table SNG's like that?
Marty Smith
moose;128845 wrote= W$SD% ?
not sure
Went to Show Down Winning percentage, generally reflects if you know the true value of your hole cards and/or if you are a calling station (elephant).
margaud
st0neC0ldNutz;128794 wroteSo what is considered a good # of games to have played before you can, with more certainty, say that you are ready to move up in limits? 1000?
Also, I feel like if you ever do not cash for 20 SNG's as you say, then something is wrong with the level you are playing at <you are playing up too high> (at least at the low limits I play) - I do suppose, that if I were playing $1000 sng's that I could have a 2% ROI and still be happy with the money I would be able to pull in per month (or $/hr to be more accurate)
Yes, 1000 minimum is a good start. 55 games could just be a heater.
IMO, not cashing in 20 sng's in a row is just your standard variance (bad run) and nothing to do with playing in the wrong level. Ok, now that I think about it more...maybe 20 is a bit much but 12-15 is definitely understandable.
st0neC0ldNutz
margaud;128896 wroteYes, 1000 minimum is a good start. 55 games could just be a heater.
IMO, not cashing in 20 sng's in a row is just your standard variance (bad run) and nothing to do with playing in the wrong level. Ok, now that I think about it more...maybe 20 is a bit much but 12-15 is definitely understandable.
Yes, 55 games tells you nothing. I was not intending to infer that because of these 55 games I should move up limits. It's that over 400 games this year, I'm over 18% ROI, so I think that stat should be sufficient for me to move up (if my bankroll says I can move up...which it does) - but I guess I can't say unequivocally that I am a "good" low limit SNG player until I reach 1000 games and still have an ROI above say 17% (which is what I read on 2+2 was considered the ROI for top players at the $5 level).
Thanks for your comments man.
st0neC0ldNutz
Thanks guys for responding to this thread. It has helped me think things through a little better.
Still, I am on my "October SNG Mission" to play 100 games, 4 tabling only - the month is running out and I am only at 65 games but I should get there. After that, I am going to try 4 tabling the $10 SNGs, which, I already have the BR to support if things go down the tube ;-)
Also, I did try one session where I staggered the start times of 2 of my games till one blind level was over in the other 2. I found this harder in fact, since I was having to always re-gather key information (level, stack size, initial raise amount...) on each table rather than knowing what I should be doing on ALL tables at each level of the SNG - but, that might just be me and how my brain works. I have never got HU on all 4, just 3 once, and I won all 3 so I guess I can handle it on the rare occasions when it comes up - the key is as one poster said, using your time bank and thinking through each hand and not panicking.
schabs
Is there a specific site where it shows your single table SNG stats, I know on fulltilt you can get that link to your own personal MTT and SNG stats....?
st0neC0ldNutz
schabs;129020 wroteIs there a specific site where it shows your single table SNG stats, I know on fulltilt you can get that link to your own personal MTT and SNG stats....?
The site I look at once in a while is
www.sharkscope.com
but it mixes in 18/45/90 player fixed MTT's as "SNG's" so its not strictly "single table".
So how do you see these stats in FullTilt you speak of?
st0neC0ldNutz
Said I'd update this when I finished my goal so here it goes:
I finished my goal of doing 100 SNG's - only 4 tabling each time, at the $5 level.
It took less than a month (played 16 actual days, spread out over the month)
Here are the results.
# games = 100
Total Profit = $318.50
Profit/SNG = $3.19
ROI = 57.9%
1st's = 22
2nd's= 15
3rd's= 19
Bubble's = 10
ITM% = 56%
I ended up with 56 games on FT and 44 on Stars. I had a higher profit at Stars ($181.00) than on FT ($137.50) despite playing less games there....guess I should play on Stars more ;-)
I have now started my next 100 SNG challenge but this time I am going to do all $10 SNGs. Players seem to be more conservative so far, obv they are better - will be interesting to see how the ROI does this time around.
-ev
Great thread. Some good pointers. I would agree with the staggered start times and doing some of the multi-tables at the higher buy-in until you are confident with the higher level.
Have you read Moshman's book? Highly recommended.